people complain about hunting. yet they eat meat...

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gezzer,

I don't think I understand your post.

I don't think there were humans hundreds of thousands of years ago. Which makes it hard to picture us eating anything, much less each other.
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Should have been couple hundred as in 2 thousand years or 10,00 years being semantic. so not 100.000 . The main point is WE ATE THE VEGANS. More than likley roasted on a spit.

By the way Chimpanses eat meat Note: they are getting smarter because of it. Ref: Animal planet.
 
gezzer,

Still not really clear on what you mean. Who are these vegans that you say "we" were eating?

You said that our eyes not being on the sides of our heads is proof that we were "by design" meant to eat meat. By bringing up gorillas, I'm pointing out that the placement of an animal's eyes is not enough information on which to make a decision about its diet. I think the crucial difference between the vegan primates and the omnivorous ones is their ability to process fat and cholesterol.

In any event, there are lot of things humans were designed to do that we can't or don't in modern times, so I don't find that argument particularly meaningful anyway. Regardless of "design", I have free will and the ability to make decisions for myself and I can base those decisions on morality without regard to evolution or nature's plan for me.

I've heard theories that us eating meat contributed to how our brains evolved, but I don't know much about it. My initial (probably biased) reaction is to say that chimps have probably been eating the same diet for a pretty long time, so it's hard to imagine how they're getting smarter. But like I said, I don't know much about it. It would be helpful if you could post a reference. I did a quick Google search, but didn't come up with anything about intelligence. All I found were articles about digestion and finding a wider range of food to eat.

As far as the humans, I believe that we have placed ourselves out of the evolutionary loop. I don't think you mean that eating meat affects an individual's intelligence in their lifetime.
 
http://www.westonaprice.org/traditional_diets/gorilla.html

An interesting article by an Associate Professor Emeritus of Anthropology.

He doesn't feel the diet of gorillas has much to do with a humans healthy diet. Gorillas are not absolutely vegans, either. They've been observed tearing up termite mounds to get to the insects. They also eat grubs and other insects.

It doesn't seem that humans are "designed" to be totally vegetarian, as much as some folks would like it to be so.

As far as the humans, I believe that we have placed ourselves out of the evolutionary loop.
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I'd be interested in knowing why you think that's true. Only time will tell if our current evolutionary track is a successful one. There are many more extinct species than there are existing ones. I believe that man in his current form has been around for about 20,000 years, a mere blink in evolutionary terms. I don't think we've "evolved" to the point where we don't need to eat meat, even though technology makes it possible to be a vegetarian with vitamins and food supplements. If you take away the technology, I bet a charbroiled porterhouse would taste pretty good after a month or so. Much better than grubs and grasshoppers, anyway. :D

Man is a predator. He can survive and thrive on a meat diet, as long as it's the right kind of meat and he eats the whole animal. Why do you think early settlers called Indians "gut eaters"?

I was thinking about this thread while I was stillhunting in the swamp, Saturday afternoon. I saw about 20 squirrels, 1/2 a dozen raccoons, some ducks and a couple of does. I never even pulled my revolver from the holster. I guess I ain't much of a predator, huh? Hunting, for many, isn't about killing, it's about hunting. That's something non/anti hunters just don't understand. I will admit, if my freezer was empty, it probably would have had a different ending. :D
 
I wasn't saying that a human's diet was related to a gorilla's, just that eye placement wasn't an effective means of judging. A gorilla and a man have very different digestive systems and it's clear that a gorilla was "designed" to be vegan (I think we can leave out insects for the sake of argument) and a man is "designed" to be an omnivore.

But again, I don't think that's the final word on what we can or cannot do. There are a whole lot of healthy vegetarians and vegans out there, which, to me, proves that it's a perfectly viable way to live, even if it's not one we were initially built for. And again, there are a lot of things we weren't built for that we do.

The reason that I think we're removed from evolution is that there's almost no more selection. A person with a mutation that makes them more or less likely to thrive isn't any more or less likely to reproduce than one who doesn't. With very rare exception, we pretty much all reach reproduction age with the chance to reproduce.

Imagine that a hundred people were born who could run twice as fast as the rest of us. In nature, those people would thrive, be more likely to survive, and be more likely to mate. So, there would be a few more of them the next generation, and on and on until they had out-competed the rest of us and were the new standard of the species.

But nowadays, they wouldn't have that advantage. They might do well in life and be superior athletes or the like, but they wouldn't be any more likely to reproduce than a dumpy fat guy, so would never become the majority.

That's my understanding, anyway. I'm no evolutionary expert. If I'm mistaken, I hope to be corrected.
 
I was thinking about this thread while I was stillhunting in the swamp, Saturday afternoon. I saw about 20 squirrels, 1/2 a dozen raccoons, some ducks and a couple of does. I never even pulled my revolver from the holster. I guess I ain't much of a predator, huh? Hunting, for many, isn't about killing, it's about hunting. That's something non/anti hunters just don't understand. I will admit, if my freezer was empty, it probably would have had a different ending.
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That's a lot like my deer hunting goes most of the time... go after deer and see everything else.:D I sat up on the ridge close to my house and seen hawks, owls, foxes... could'a shot plenty of squirrels if I'd had my .22 with me, but a .30-30 would've torn up too much meat. And a lot of times I've seen bucks, they weren't the old big buck I was after so I let 'em walk. Meant to get out there on doe day, but had to be somewhere else that involved a mess of traffic.:cuss: Wound up doing with storebought beef because I didn't get deer steaks those years. But I also have enjoyed a lot of success in being there and seeing I could stay still and calm while the does walked by checking me out... most times I've had them walk almost right up to me and never blew up. I've also had bucks walk right by like they didn't even know I was there. This last time, Thanksgiving evening, I enjoyed a level of success I'd previously found rare. Hunting isn't all about killing for me either, but I'm hoping to get more meat by the end of this season.

Oh... thinking of store bought beef vs deer, I killed that buck and Daddy and I got it worked up... we got pretty steaks out of it. What does Mom do? She goes and stocks up on ground beef like she didn't see the deer in the freezer.:banghead: She knows I killed this buck fully intending to eat the meat. I don't know what she's thinking.

The deer tags in Georgia... we have slots for 10 does. In my county, we have three doe days. We also have slots for 2 antlered bucks. One can be any size, but the other has to have 4pts at least 1" on one side. We have 2.5 months worth of deer season here- October 21 this year IIRC, through January 1. It don't sound so bad until you consider they're saying one buck in the limit is covered by antler restrictions and they're doing that to promote big trophy bucks. The problem is their logic don't seem to work because folks can't take out two older spikes that don't have the genetics to pass on big antlers as evidenced by the small diamter of the pedicles (the bases the antlers grow from between the buck's ears). By taking out as many trophy bucks as lesser bucks, it seems to me we're leaving a lot more small-racked bucks out there goofin' up the gene pool. And in my area we have way too many of that kind. On the other hand, there are some idiots who will shoot a buck and see what it is (not having taken the time to see through their scope or binoculars) and leave it laying if the rack isn't big enough by law. This is another issue of ethical hunting... leaving the dead deer laying to just be wasted is another thing that has been known to give hunters a bad name. Now, as a hunter and as a citizen, I have no intention of violating game laws or engaging in unethical hunting practices, but I'm also a thinking person and I think we, in my state anyway, need to change the law so game management works better.
 
The reason that I think we're removed from evolution is that there's almost no more selection.
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Our lack of natural selection in breeding is an evolutionary track. As I said, only time will tell if it's successful. Your example is 100% correct. Obviously, as more and more people of mediocre ability live to reproduce, more and more people will be born with mediocre abilities. I'm not sure how successful that will be, in the long run.
 
Yeah, I actually was being a bit optimistic. I think we'll see either zero evolution or "reverse" evolution.

But it's probably a moot point anyway. As you were saying, evolution takes such a stupdendous amount of time that it probably won't matter. The evolution of our civilization happens so much faster and so much more drastically that it seems like it completely overshadows anything else. The small advantages of biological mutation are certainly nothing compared to our abilities to cure disease, feed people on a larger scale, and blow ourselves to pieces.
 
Actually, evolution really doesn't necessarily take a lot of time, it happens in spurts, brought on by catastrophic events, or that's the latest thinking anyway. We used to think it was a slow continuous process, but more and more in the geological record, they're finding catastrophic events and then just a few tens of thousands of years later, a whole new biota to fill all the niches left by the departed.

Forward eyes in primates, BTW, are thought to be advantageous to a tree dwelling animal who must judge distance from branch to branch. They helped out when humans became carnivorous, though.:D

Pork chops tonight, the other white meat.:D
 
There are trace elements and amino acids and suchlike that are only available from meat. Healty "vegans" get these from their friendly drugstore.

I've made no study of masses of vegetarian folks, but I've seen darned few who could do a day's hard physical labor around a farm or ranch--or a steel mill, for that matter. Which, of course, is quite different from judging one's health by whether or not one can run a marathon. :)

Homo sap is a predatory omnivore. If the Great Biologist In The Sky hadn't meant it to be that way, we wouldn't be able to eat meat--or need those food elements that are only available from meat.

Art
 
I will add two more cents worth

If it has not already been pointed out, I have not read all these postings, the problem with most Americans is that we eat way too much red meat. It is good for us in limited degrees and if mostly lean, lean, lean. But we overdo it to a great extent at the cost of health and weight problems related, partially, to this eating practice. Fish and fowl are much better for us, if not fried.
 
Art,

The topic of amino acids is one that is far from settled. There's plenty of evidence suggesting that the so-called magical combinations aren't really that important. I think if you look into some fitness magazines that cite medical and nutritional studies, you'll find that most Americans get way more protein than they should be.

As I said, the only vitamin I take is a regular old multi-vitamin, just like your doctor probably suggests. One thing that isn't debated that I'm aware of is B-12, which is something that vegans often don't get. Not getting B-12 is a bad time, so you have to stay on top of it. If your supplies are low, you can get a shot a couple of times a year. Not sure if the shot is animal-derived or not, but I'll look into it.

I think that the idea of the wan, frail vegetarian is like any other stereotype. The ones you see like that stick in your mind, where the others aren't really noted (if you know they're vegetarians in the first palce).

Once again, I'm not aware of a way to argue anecdotal evidence, like your farm or steel boys. I haven't eaten meat since I was a kid and I've had plenty of physical jobs: factory work, concrete, plenty of time landscaping, etc. No problems from me, but poison ivy.

I'm interested in hearing why those who make the "we weren't designed to..." argument think that it's a logical reason for doing something. We weren't designed to wear shoes or get chemotherapy. From my experience, literally the only thing that ever gets argued from that position is not eating meat. And that includes things that are unquestionably bad for you like smoking or drinking.
 
I think if you look into some fitness magazines that cite medical and nutritional studies, you'll find that most Americans get way more protein than they should be.
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A high protein diet made us what we are. And, I don't listen to medical studies. One minute saccharin will kill you, next minute (oh, no, we goofed, it actually kills cancer) or whatever, get my drift. My opinion is the medical community has their collective heads up their butts. I SURE don't listen to 'em on the subject of terminal ballistics, guys like Fackler. My opinion is most doctors think they're friggin' Albert Einstein and it goes to their condescending heads. I gave up on the value of the research years ago.

Now then, it is my humble opinion we don't eat too much red meat, we just eat too much fatty meat. Wild game is pretty devoid of the fat and what we evolved eating in the first place. There were no herefords 150,000 years ago.

About 6 years ago, I dropped 45 lbs on the Atkins diet. That one worked and rewarded meat eaters. :D Of course, I gained some of it back. I missed my cereal in the mornings and my beer during the day.:banghead:
 
If you don't want to listen to science and I don't put much stock in anecdotal evidence, I'm not sure what we have left :)

Thank God for the eternal middle ground of beer.
 
I can be calm and rational talking about moral issues of life, death, and suffering, but I'm going to go bananas if anyone starts bad-mouthing beer.
 
Ever hear the story of the 10 year old boy who took a sip of beer and it turned his mouth inside out???

That was me. Seriously. Other than that, I'm allergic to the brewer's yeast. Now, if we were discussing Jim Beam... but I've seen it catch a bunch of flak too.
 
I sorta raise an eyebrow at the too-much notions of either red meat or fatty meat. IMO, it's merely "too much", period. Too (bleep) much total intake of protein, carbo, starches, frou-frou stuff. You eat 3,000 calories' worth and burn off maybe 1,000, hey, guess what?

A large part of our population gets very little exercise, but if you watch them at any cafe, restaurant or fast-food joint, they're loading up like they just got out of a Japanese prison camp. Scary.

DirtyBrad, I know my comment about vegetarians and physical work is anecdotal, but it's a gathering of anecdotes from around a half-century. :)

"Range" magazine is oriented toward western agriculture folks. Anti-tree-hugger. They have a fairly regular column of pictures and short vignettes about meat-eating folks. An amazing number of them are actively working cattle, hauling hay and all that stuff--in their seventies and eighties. "I don't see why I shouldn't work my cattle; I enjoy it. Why quit?" said more than one gnarled and wrinkled old lady or gentleman. "Been eatin' cow all my life!"

Maker's Mark; Woodford Reserve.

:D, Art
 
Ever hear the story of the 10 year old boy who took a sip of beer and it turned his mouth inside out???

That was me. Seriously. Other than that, I'm allergic to the brewer's yeast. Now, if we were discussing Jim Beam... but I've seen it catch a bunch of flak too.
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Allergic to BEER? My God, life ain't worth living!:banghead: :D I am allergic to hard liquor. Every time I tried it in college, the room started spinning and I threw up four or five times. I leave that stuff alone, too wussie to drink poison. My German heritage demands beer in my diet, though.
 
Art,

Vignettes about meat-eaters? They must have to really search far and wide :)

I'm not saying meat-eating isn't healthy. I agree that anything done to excess is unhealthy. You can be a fat pig of a vegetarian or vegan, no problem. There are no animals in sugar. Meat-eater or vegan, you can be healthy or unhealthy, of course.

And I think exercise trumps almost everything else. Which is another reason I think arguing the details of diet is largely a waste of time.

As I've said, I think consuming meat is a question of taste only and I don't think that's very important.

Unless we're talking about booze. I love Maker's. Haven't tried Woodford yet, but I'll do some "research" and let you know.
 
I like those apple fritters I've been getting at Ingle's lately.:D

I'm planning on eating some deer steak, battered and with gravy and bisquits tonight too. I would have fired up the grill and used mesquite charcoal, but it's gonna be too cold and windy this evening.
 
I read the first two pages and this last one, and I have to ask: have y'all argued yet about whether cholesterol is necessary for optimal brain development in fetuses, babies, and young children?

pax
 
pax,

I think the conversation now is more aligned with how bourbon and beer affect the unborn.

I know that vegans reproduce. I also know that extra care is usually taken to be sure the baby is getting enough and correct nutrients, but I haven't seen anything about cholesterol. I'd be interested in seeing what you've found out.

I have to say I'm skeptical that vegan women are having children with brain deficiencies, though.
 
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