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Pepper Spray--The Truth

Discussion in 'Non-Firearm Weapons' started by OC-Trainer, Dec 17, 2014.

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  1. OC-Trainer

    OC-Trainer Member

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    Thanks, armoredman. Love hearing those stories. That's interesting about the snake incident. I guess the "physical obstruction" came into play in that situation too.

    Below I linked a short clip of "Phantom OC" by Sabre, so everyone can see what it is we are discussing, and how adding extra propellant produces a cone pattern on steroids.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRKVf7h3Egw
     
  2. OC-Trainer

    OC-Trainer Member

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    One of the most common myths surrounding pepper/OC spray is that it will not work on someone under the influence of drugs or alcohol. Folks will claim that it "failed" or "some are immune to it." A thorough reading of this thread debunks all of those myths, and addresses those claims. Having said that, sometimes there is nothing better than seeing it action. The video below is pretty compelling. Perp is on PCP (the most mystical of all illicit drugs). Guess which one of the tools used did its job (removed vision) the first time out? Maybe they should have used OC first...

    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/man-feels-no-pain-hit-taser-pepper-spray-video-article-1.2351706
     
  3. glistam

    glistam Member

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    Very interesting video! It was actually well shot. Seeing that baton hit to the thigh and the guy doesn't even blink.:what:

    I would hypothesize regarding the taser, that they failed to get a solid connection with both wires at first. Having your muscles jolted by electricity has nothing to do with your sensation of pain. You can see at the half-way point when they shoot him with it again, he does exactly what you'd expect a taser to do: go rigid and fall to the ground. So it's clearly not the PCP making the taser not work.

    The OC also does appear to work just fine. You can see about 3:10 he is blinded and started to sputter. This likely gave the cops the opportunity to get a solid taser shot in on his back (where it's harder to block or pull out the probes).
     
  4. OC-Trainer

    OC-Trainer Member

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    Agreed, glistam. It would be interesting to see if/when he removed the barbs. Unfortunately, he runs out of the frame briefly. Usually it is clothing or a jacket that prevents the barbs from attaching. Although he was shirtless, something definitely prevented the TASER's barbs from working properly.

    There's also a lot in that little video. I was shocked to see how people continued to keep eating as though nothing was going on. The "commentary" by some of the viewers is rather interesting too.
     
  5. OC-Trainer

    OC-Trainer Member

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    Not OC related, but on topic. Must see video that really puts the TASER into perspective. Watching this video makes what transpired in the "PCP man" video above even more remarkable, in my opinion.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=576HwhU6PMM
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2015
  6. OpticsPlanet

    OpticsPlanet Member

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    Wow, excellent video. I also cannot believe how many people have zero reaction to the events going on in front of them. I assume they would've started moving and reacting if the officers had deployed OC inside.

    Is that a possible reason they waited until outside? Is there any concern/liability (for officers) using OC indoors (whether affecting innocent/uninvolved parties or in regards to the business especially since it was a restaurant)?

    Question on tasers since they come up here semi regularly...are they only probe launchers these days? i thought that they still had the ability to physically contact the taser to the subject...it almost appeared that at on point an officer was trying direct contact but it still seemed to have no effect, which i would think it would since getting a good barb purchase/contact wouldnt be an issue and no clothes would also be conducive to transmission.....thoughts?

    Final question....you have stated that there really are not any good OC classes/courses that are available to civilians. As an NRA instructor, I am always looking to add info to my courses and feel that covering OC (if only briefly) in a CCW course or NRA Refuse to be a Victim course would be beneficial. What would be your recommended or ideal curriculum?

    (Off the top of my head, I would figure 15-20min of material, nothing elaborate. Cover spray types, formulas, some of the deployment methods we have discussed here, and decon)

    -Matt S.
     
  7. glistam

    glistam Member

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    Sounds like your referring to what's called a "drive stun," which is what is seen in the video. Most tasers used by law enforcement do have the ability to deliver a jolt via direct contact with launcher's "barrel." It effectively is using the taser the same way a contact stun gun is used.

    However, there an important difference between a drive stun and the probes. The drive stun only causes pain, not muscular disruption like the probes do. So it's understandable why it wouldn't work. It's a popular misconception (perpetuated by fictional television programs) that contact stun guns cause unconsciousness or at least full body muscle disruption like the taser probes, but it's not true. They only cause pain, which is why they were banned by most departments. Taser Intl simply included the feature to provide officers with a back-up.
     
  8. OC-Trainer

    OC-Trainer Member

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    Matt,

    -On the surface, it looked to be a dream scenario for the use of a TASER. Shirtless, without clothing or a jacket to disrupt the attaching of the probes. Plenty of distance for proper spread. I'm guessing that, and like you mentioned, fear of potentially cross-contaminating the entire restaurant with OC led to their decision. Looking deeper at it (with the benefit of hindsight, of course), it seemed like a no brainer to me to hit him with the OC first. Not only were they using stream patterns, which would help prevent affecting the whole eatery with the spray, it just makes sense to me to remove his vision first. Then hit him with the TASER. I know I'm a little biased, but I feel that anytime you can temporarily remove someones vision in any kind of scuffle you're going to have a tremendous advantage. Heck, I got into this profession because I saw how effective carrying around an old candy container (filled with salt and pepper) was at getting me out of a few jams. I also would rather have contaminated the place with a little OC, that the perps blood, which is exactly what happened...and in a place that serves food, no less.

    -glistam addressed the TASER questions. (Thanks, glistam)

    -I think it would be a great idea for you to offer some OC spray training to the public. The topics you mentioned are important and should definitely be addressed, but the single best thing you can do is work on dynamic, real-world scenarios. A civilian will (almost) never use pepper spray at long distances. Virtually every video (even by Sabre, more on that shortly), shows someone standing still spraying a paper target for distance. That is hogwash. That isn't even remotely close to how a civilian will use pepper spray in an assault. Working on techniques like- accessing the spray, "activating" the actuator, and firing the spray- all while someone is rushing towards you and/or at a distance of about three feet, are much more realistic. I'm a big believer in freeze, flight-fight response training.

    Now to Sabre- they are now the global leader in this category. With such reach, you'd think that they would be able to put out a halfway decent class for civilians. Negative. There is more to using pepper spray than spraying a paper target with a "mean" face on it. I expected better from them.

    Thanks for the questions Matt, and let me know if you need anything else.

    OCT
     
  9. OpticsPlanet

    OpticsPlanet Member

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    Thanks! Yes, a "drive stun" is exactly what I was referring to...I did not know that a drive stun does not have the same effect as when using the probes or that many departments have done away with them. Again, you are on the money...hollywood definitely pushes inaccurate Taser info as readily as they push inaccurate firearm info.

    I appreciate the info. This thread has gone above and beyond delivering the truth and not just for pepper spray.

    -Matt S.
     
  10. DaisyCutter

    DaisyCutter Member

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    100% of the time you Taze someone, you should follow-up with a drive stun. The probes have failed me 5 of 6 times I've used the Taser.

    Every single time I've tased a guy it's been to end a foot pursuit. Usually either I miss with a probe, or the wires break as the guy goes over a fence. Once a guy threw off his coat as I fired. Once the Taser actually worked textbook.

    Usually the Taser will work "well enough" to get me in arm's length to drop the guy, then straddle him and pin him down with the Taser while I go for my cuffs with the other hand.

    They hear the *pop*, feel an impact, and it resets their OODA loop.

    I know it sounds mean to throw a suspect down, straddle and spark him while I recover and grab my cuffs, but the typical suspect is younger l, wearing a wife-beater and gym shorts. I'm carrying a heavy belt and wearing a snug vest that really doesn't let me breathe freely. So the first chase needs to be the last chase, because I won't have the wind or muscle to enjoy a second chase.

    Here is a good example of one of MY Taser deployments. [The camera is mounted ON the Taser, kinda like a weapon light.]


    https://youtu.be/qIBw4LuZRIw

    I shot the guy as he leapt a fence. The wires broke, so I start trying drive stun him over the fence. You get good close-up's of his tattoos as I prod him with the Taser itself. He starts running again, so I do a quick reload, aim carefully and shoot him perfectly in the back. He tenses, falls over, and the wires break again. Luckily he gives up... But you can clearly hear my Taser ticking and the guy isn't reacting.

    Taser, 0 for 2, suspect lost interest.
     
  11. OC-Trainer

    OC-Trainer Member

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    @DaisyCutter, intense video. Thank you for posting it, and for sharing your experiences.
     
  12. OC-Trainer

    OC-Trainer Member

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    Even though I'm not a fan of Sabre's civilian pepper spray class, they did flex their muscle and address probably the biggest internet myth of all time in this category- The "Wasp spray in place of pepper spray for defense" ridiculousness (I addressed this many pages back) Gotta give credit were it's due...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Uy9MnQfk_0

     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 6, 2015
  13. OC-Trainer

    OC-Trainer Member

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    Cold Steel Inferno

    I wanted to give the straight dope on Cold Steel Inferno pepper foam. Something I've been meaning to get to for a while now. Most of us are familiar with the Cold Steel marketing approach. The same style they use to sell their knives and other products is used in the marketing of their pepper spray. However, as an "insider" I can cut through the BS and tell it like it is.

    Right off the bat, I want to say that I think it is a good product. That said, let's take a look at some of their claims:

    "The Ultimate Dual Action Defense Spray," says the heading.

    "Inferno is a new pepper canister weapon from Cold Steel that will turn the biggest, meanest, most violent criminal into helpless molten wax at your feet. Unlike other pepper sprays you may have heard about, Inferno deploys a highly targetable foam that contains 8% Oleoresin Capsicum and 2% black pepper."

    Cold Steel would have us believe (through the marketing literature & videos) that they've invented the greatest thing since sliced bread. That they reinvented the pepper spray category. By combining two types of pepper (more on that shortly) into one spray. Well, here is the truth. They didn't "come up" with anything. As a matter of fact, Cold Steel bought out an existing brand! The formula that they tout as the greatest, was actually a product by another company that they acquired.

    Take a look at this link. It is one of the only examples left of the former company.
    http://www.amazon.com/BodyGuard-Plus-Pepper-Spray-Value/dp/B0013GDRZA

    If you look closely, you'll see that it states that it has two types of pepper. What they are referring to is capsaicin and piperlne (black pepper). Sound familiar? Inferno's claim to fame is that it uses two kinds of pepper extacts, and that the black pepper "induces the sneeze reflex," that will "drag the super hot Habanero chili extract deep into the mucous membranes of the sinus cavities of the nose, throat and lungs causing them to swell up and prevent all but desperate life support breathing." This is complete and utter nonsense. Black pepper does, indeed, induce the sneeze reflex, but it is a virtually worthless addition to the formula. The way OC affects the our sinuses (causes extreme nasal discharge, for example) will completely counter the sneeze reflex. Testing out the product many times, not one person ever experienced the sneeze reflex effect.

    Pros:
    • Active Ingredients : 8% Oleoresin Capsicum.
    • 2,000,000 Scoville Heat Unites (SHU)
    • Scoville Value : 160,000
    • Capsaicinoid Content: 1.00 %
    CONTAINS NO CARCINOGENS OR ISOPROPYL ALCOHOL.

    Cons:
    • Only comes in foam. Strong winds can really knock foam OC off the mark. (Despite what their videos would have you believe)
    • Black pepper is worthless in this formula. Just added for marketing purposes.

    All in all, you can do a lot worse than this product. Don't believe the hype when it comes to the 2% black pepper. It is meaningless when it comes to the products effectiveness.

    OCT
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2015
  14. Sox

    Sox Member

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    OCT,

    Could you comment on the recent "FURY" line of products offered up on Ebay. They have a small fog nozzle spray that seems nice, but can't find any info on strenght etc.

    Thanks!!
    Dave
     
  15. OC-Trainer

    OC-Trainer Member

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    Sure, Dave...happy to help.

    To be perfectly honest, 'Fury' is not a brand that I would recommend. I always try and find something positive to say so let's start with some positivity. I like the fact that the company behind 'Fury' is somewhat innovative. They've taken the initiative and added a twist to some of the humdrum pepper spray offerings. But that is about the best I can say, I'm afraid.

    It is always dubious when a defense spray manufacturer doesn't include the three main numbers to determine the strength or pungency of an OC spray. If you notice in the Inferno post above, the company reveals the OC%, the SHU ratings, and the capsaicinoid content. With Fury, they claim (keyword) 18% OC @ 2 million SHU, and the SHU rating isn't even readily available. Their own website doesn't even mention that number, only 18% OC. It has been my experience, that whenever a company touts a very high OC percentage, they are playing a numbers game in the marketing. Every reputable defense spray company will be forthcoming with the numbers of their products. I'd be really interested in seeing a third-party HPLC test (currently the most accurate test to determine product strength and claims) on the Fury line.

    Bottom line- I suppose it is better than nothing, but with superior products readily available (at the same price point), I can't see any reason to carry that brand. I'd skip it.

    As always, please let me know if you have any further questions.

    OCT

    Edit: If you are in the market for cone/fog spray in small size, then Zarc, Spitfire by Sabre, and UDAP are some great ones to look into.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2015
  16. samweller

    samweller Member

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    This thread is a ton of info. Are there a couple of products you can bottom line recommend? I mean something that will fry their eyeballs in their head that is legal.
     
  17. DeepSouth

    DeepSouth Member

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    ^^^^^

    Just use wasp spray.
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    Sorry I couldn't help myself. :evil:
    I bet a vein in OC-T's head just popped. :what:
     
  18. OC-Trainer

    OC-Trainer Member

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    DeepSouth,
    Here's me reading your post ;)
    icu.jpg
     
  19. OC-Trainer

    OC-Trainer Member

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    Welcome to THR, Sam.

    If you want the hottest spray currently on the market, and I mean the legit hottest backed by science, then get the World's Hottest by UDAP. It is actually stronger than bear spray.

    OCT
     
  20. samweller

    samweller Member

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    Thanks, OC.
     
  21. OC-Trainer

    OC-Trainer Member

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    Whenever possible, I like to include a link or two to support some of the claims I make. I offer my opinion a lot in this thread about a variety of defense sprays and even though my thoughts are based on my first-hand knowledge, science and experience within the industry, being able to provide "proof" is never a bad thing in my mind. So, with that said I like to offer a couple of clips regarding Inferno.

    This first link is a promotional video that makes the "sneeze reflex" claims. Anyone whose ever had the pleasure of inhaling pepper spray will realize that what is being claimed in this clip isn't really possible.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hPCuw_n3sA

    This next clip is someone testing out Inferno (and UDAP). If the black pepper in this product was ever going to actually do what the company claims it will be during this test. Does the spray cause the tester to inhale? Also, if you look down at the comment section you will notice someone who purchased Inferno and receive an interesting surprise when looking under the label.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?
    v=fSyeBzao7eE


    The very fact that Inferno only comes in foam essentially negates their claims of what the 2% black pepper is supposed to do in the product. Foams are designed to eliminate the inhalation of the OC and to reduce cross-contamination indoors. So why would they add something that will only work when inhaled? Aside from that, the second OC vapors enter the lungs, it cause inflammation and coughing. Not the opposite action of inhaling or as they say in the video "suck all that goodness deep into their lungs." Yeah, right.

    OCT
     
  22. Ron_Miami

    Ron_Miami Member

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    OC-Trainer,

    What is your opinion of SABRE's instructor training?

    It is a one day, 10 hr. course for $300.
     
  23. OC-Trainer

    OC-Trainer Member

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    Ron, if you are a civilian looking to obtain any kind of "credentials" in OC spray instruction, then Sabre's course is pretty much the only choice. Let's start with the good:

    The first half of the class is informative and it is information that you must know. Things like how the spray works on us (physiology) and spray pattern selection is important stuff. You'll have training from what is now considered the most recognizable brand in the industry (even though there isn't really an accrediting body for this type of training) along with some swag that is supposed to help you get started.

    Now the bad; The part of the course that really matter-the hands on deployment and tactics portion of the course- is not good, in my opinion. It has major flaws for real world applications. Also, with the exception of one civilian sector, there is virtually zero interest for a course of this nature, in my experience. You maybe able to fill a class a few times a year, but it will be very difficult to make an OC spray training class a regular offering. I do not believe that this type of class has caught on the way Sabre (or the industry) would have liked, frankly. And unless you are willing to travel or have a bunch of folks looking to become instructors in your area, it may be hard to even get the training from Sabre for yourself to become an instructor.

    Please know that I'm not trying to dissuade you from taking their course. I think that it is great that you want to do it, as I think that this sort of training for the civilian market is long over due, but I also want to be honest with you regarding the challenges that you most assuredly will face (been there).

    Good luck and please let me know if I can be of any assistance in the future.

    OCT
     
  24. OpticsPlanet

    OpticsPlanet Member

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    I would put the price in the Con section as well...the price is rather significant and when you consider that the info, which is the best part, can be gathered here (and supplemented with some more internet research) then i really couldn't justify the cost

    unless the "swag" is THAT cool haha but for $300 one could do their own research (like read this thread) and then buy a variety of products to train with...or that is what I would do anyways.

    i agree that it is probably quite difficult to find regular students on a scale that is worth the time/money. Integrating OC info/usage into an already established self defense course seems like a better route.

    From reading this thread, I really think the NRA should jump on the OC spray train. It is a perfect fit for the "Refuse to be a Victim" course and I think they could really do a better job, not to mention getting the NRA on board would be invaluable if legislators ever tried to ban or significantly restrict OC spray.

    CCW instructors could definitely benefit by being able to offer a reasonably priced supplemental course on OC to their students, for situations where you cannot or choose not to carry a firearm.

    Something to consider OC-T if you ever feel the desire to put together an effective/efficient program and see it nationally utilized ;)

    As always, loving this thread.

    -Matt S.
     
  25. OC-Trainer

    OC-Trainer Member

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    @Matt S, great stuff! Lots of excellent points.

    Edit:..and the swag is a Sabre polo and some power points, lol :rolleyes:
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2015
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