Pepper Spray--The Truth

[OC-Trainer]

OCT,

So what is the best way to select a spray for oneself after determining which spray pattern is more appropriate for one's application?

How do I tell from the labeling which is hotter? Should you base it on pure percentage? or other info?

Your thoughts on the combo sprays? CS/OC combos for example

What about the VEXOR technology is it truly novel or gimmicky?

Where is the best available training for the civilian?

How does a big name agency like FBI/SECT SVC etc. select spray? Is it very rigorous? or driven my pricing?

Thanks again, for this wealth of info. I have learned more in a few post that would take me a great while to decipher on my own.

Great questions...

1.Cone is always my default answer here. Live in the "Windy City?" Go with stream or foam

2.The most important number is the major capsaicinoid% Look for one with at least 1%

3.No to combo sprays. CS/CN are not effective against someone temporarily immune to pain
100% OC with at least 1% MC is a slam dunk.

4. If you are referring to Vexor formula, it's nothing special. Actuator tech? gimmicky.

5. Civilian training is essentially non-existent. You may get lucky and find a Sabre program, but they are few and very far between.

6. Feds select a product with 3rd-party HPLC certifications. What they choose depends on what pattern best meets their needs.

Thanks Sox, appreciate it. Let me know if you need anything else.

OCT

 

[RustyShackelford]

EDWs, OCs, formulas.....

I've seen most modern OCs & chemical agents state they are safe or able to used with EDWs(electric discharge weapons/Taser).
Are these products lab tested or R&Ded?
I've seen older civil actions & documented LE events where subjects are hit with Mace or OC then shot with EDWs/stun guns, . One EDP(emotional disturbed person) was sprayed, showed no response then was hit with a EDW. The subject lit up like a bon fire & had serious burns.

Are there any common brands to avoid if you also pack a Taser, X26/C2?

Thanks!

 

[rogerjames]

Here is a little known fact: Defense-Tech, UDAP, and MACE Brand are all basically the same company.

Check out my analogy:

Defense-Tech=Banana Rebublic
UDAP = Gap
MACE = Old Navy

OCT

Ahh... This type of information is what I was talking about.

What are the the important levels/concentrations/units that should be considered when choosing a spray?

Are there any keychain size devices worth carrying?

 

[OC-Trainer]

I've seen most modern OCs & chemical agents state they are safe or able to used with EDWs(electric discharge weapons/Taser).
Are these products lab tested or R&Ded?
I've seen older civil actions & documented LE events where subjects are hit with Mace or OC then shot with EDWs/stun guns, . One EDP(emotional disturbed person) was sprayed, showed no response then was hit with a EDW. The subject lit up like a bon fire & had serious burns.

Are there any common brands to avoid if you also pack a Taser, X26/C2?

Thanks!

Rusty, you definitely what to make sure you go with Sabre & Defense Tech when dealing with EDWs. Technically, any modern spray that does not contain alcohol (which almost all old-school sprays did) should be safe, however I like to be extra sure when dealing with EDWs. Sabre's and D-Techs testing in this area is second to none.

Hope this helps and thanks for the Q.

OCT

 

[Aragon]

Aaragon,

Some years ago Gary Kleck at Florida State University did a study of USDJ records which indicated that the self defense statagy that resulted in the FEWEST injured, hospitalized or dead victims was the carrying of a fire arm.

Injuries to the victim were few with a fire arm than even total compliance with the attacker, flight, and making noise.

Just thought you might want to know. You might do a search of the NRA's American Rifleman magazines for an article on the report.

-kBob

Thanks for the input. I can only speak for myself and here is how I look at it. First being able to carry a concealed handgun is important to me, the number one (and most obvious) reason is because of its potential defensive use against a grave threat.

That said I have been around long enough and in enough different situations to do a fairly good job of gauging what's life threatening and what's not. (I simply don't accept the belief of some that doing so is impossible.)

I can most definitely see where merely having a concealed firearm might elevate my concern (and the actual threat) from non life threatening to life threatening based on the potential of my own firearm being discovered and used on me. If I couldn't evade and if I had no other option, I'm left with either taking a chance and not employing my firearm, drawing and hoping the threat backs off, or permanently extinguishing the threat.

It would be in those situations that another option like pepper spray would be a Godsend.

 

[OC-Trainer]

Ahh... This type of information is what I was talking about.

What are the the important levels/concentrations/units that should be considered when choosing a spray?

Are there any keychain size devices worth carrying?

Cool, RJ

I'll also add the Mace brand is absolute trash, in my opinion. Little more the Tabasco in a spray can. Their sprays routinely test out lower than claimed.

You want a spray with at least 1% major capsaicinoids.

UDAP World's Hottest Line is a great spray. That is a cone. Maybe the best keychain right now on the market. If you are looking for stream pattern Sabre Red is nice too. Just be sure to get Sabre Red and not Sabre Red USA

 

[OC-Trainer]

If I missed anyone's question or please let me know. I'll be back in the AM!

Thanks guys!

OCT

 

[RJTravel]

Something over 40 years ago I caught the fringe of a tear gas cloud fired from one of those small revolvers. It was like getting hit by Mike Tyson and I was totally incapacitated. How would that compare to the effectiveness of modern pepper sprays?

 

[OC-Trainer]

Something over 40 years ago I caught the fringe of a tear gas cloud fired from one of those small revolvers. It was like getting hit by Mike Tyson and I was totally incapacitated. How would that compare to the effectiveness of modern pepper sprays?

Thanks for the question RJ,

Pepper spray is superior to CS/CN (tear gas) in terms of a SD application in every way.

The effectiveness of tear gas relies on pain compliance. The effectiveness of pepper spray relies on inflammation by activating the "capsaicin receptor." Someone on "bath salts" for example, is probably not going to be feeling any pain for some time. Tear gas will have little to no effect on this person. Pepper spray does not have this weakness. So ,if you and I walked through that army gas chamber, we'd be devastated. That guy on bath salts however, walks on through like a Sunday in the park on a beautiful day.

OCT

 

[Kingcreek]

Thanks for this thread.
Any thoughts on keeping a cylinder in a vehicle, above the visor, etc? I've heard pros and cons.

I have carried defense pepper spray for years in a state that just last year started a CCL, but have limited experience and no training.
My single instance of self defense use was a few years ago when I was driving thru a declining neighborhood on a nice day and had the driver side window down on my pickup. A guy at an intersection (2 way stop with one way cross traffic) jumped up on the running board and got hold of the outside rearview mirror when I was distracted looking away for an opening in the traffic. He was almost in my face and reaching in for the keys or shifter.
I kept a 2oz can of Fox Labs above the visor and I grabbed it and hit him full face with it at 18" or less. He dropped off instantly and my last image of him was rolling around in the middle of the street screaming like a girl. I had a break in the cross traffic and zoomed away but some blowback was really starting to burn me. I made it 2 blocks and pulled into a safe looking church parking lot but I couldn't see to use my cell phone and it took a while to recover.

 

[glistam]

kbob's story with his black lab (which he's posted about previously) is precisely the sort of thing I was thinking of when I asked my question about dogs. Surely there must be some explanation. As you say, it cannot be mere pain tolerance. I know of at least one anecdotal case (which I could not rigorously confirm) of a human that appeared to have been born with no TRPV1 receptors. He claimed that eating the hottest peppers tasted like nothing at all, like eating a wax candle.

 

[Madcap_Magician]

The effectiveness of tear gas relies on pain compliance. The effectiveness of pepper spray relies on inflammation by activating the "capsaicin receptor." Someone on "bath salts" for example, is probably not going to be feeling any pain for some time. Tear gas will have little to no effect on this person. Pepper spray does not have this weakness. So ,if you and I walked through that army gas chamber, we'd be devastated. That guy on bath salts however, walks on through like a Sunday in the park on a beautiful day.

While I agree that for self-defense purposes OC is superior to any CS, I think this is more due to the fact that CS loses all effectiveness when the person sprayed walks out of the gas cloud, while OC clings and has a persistent effect.

I have never found CS gas to produce any more than mild pain, though, the reason CS gas incapacitates me is the uncontrollable coughing and difficulty breathing.

 

[OC-Trainer]

Thanks for this thread.
Any thoughts on keeping a cylinder in a vehicle, above the visor, etc? I've heard pros and cons.

I have carried defense pepper spray for years in a state that just last year started a CCL, but have limited experience and no training.
My single instance of self defense use was a few years ago when I was driving thru a declining neighborhood on a nice day and had the driver side window down on my pickup. A guy at an intersection (2 way stop with one way cross traffic) jumped up on the running board and got hold of the outside rearview mirror when I was distracted looking away for an opening in the traffic. He was almost in my face and reaching in for the keys or shifter.
I kept a 2oz can of Fox Labs above the visor and I grabbed it and hit him full face with it at 18" or less. He dropped off instantly and my last image of him was rolling around in the middle of the street screaming like a girl. I had a break in the cross traffic and zoomed away but some blowback was really starting to burn me. I made it 2 blocks and pulled into a safe looking church parking lot but I couldn't see to use my cell phone and it took a while to recover.

My pleasure, thanks for the question,


It is not recommend that pepper spray or any other pressurized canister be kept in a hot car. Anything 120 F or above, and you really increase the likelihood of it leaking out or worse. Although I've never personally had a can of it explode, I have heard stories over the years of it doing just that.

In the winter though it probably is a non-issue.

OCT

 

[OC-Trainer]

kbob's story with his black lab (which he's posted about previously) is precisely the sort of thing I was thinking of when I asked my question about dogs. Surely there must be some explanation. As you say, it cannot be mere pain tolerance. I know of at least one anecdotal case (which I could not rigorously confirm) of a human that appeared to have been born with no TRPV1 receptors. He claimed that eating the hottest peppers tasted like nothing at all, like eating a wax candle.

Hi glistan,

I'm still waiting for some answers and clarification from kbob on this.

Also, I've heard the same thing over the years about someone allegedly being born without that receptor. I searched high and low,but never was able to confirm anything. If this person does exist, let's hope that do not turn to a life of crime

OCT

 

[OC-Trainer]

While I agree that for self-defense purposes OC is superior to any CS, I think this is more due to the fact that CS loses all effectiveness when the person sprayed walks out of the gas cloud, while OC clings and has a persistent effect.

I have never found CS gas to produce any more than mild pain, though, the reason CS gas incapacitates me is the uncontrollable coughing and difficulty breathing.

Madcap,

Agree 100%. What's interesting is its use in modern defense sprays. The main reason CS/CN is added now a days, is to cause a severe skin burning sensation... What surprised me when I started in the field many years ago, was that oleoresin capsicum never loses its potency. I was really surprised by that. It makes total sense to me now that I know the science, but originally I was so skeptical.

OCT

 

[OC-Trainer]

Just as an aside...

Some probably have never heard about the TRPV1 (aka capsaicin) receptor. So your probably asking, "Why aren't the pepper spray manufacturers shouting this from the rooftops?" Answer: They all want you to thing that their brand has the 'secret sauce' Many of them evoke the trade secret clause. If you've every gotten your hands on a sprays MSDS, you'll most likely see it on there. The truth...the 'trade secret' means little to nothing about the sprays effectiveness.

I've been championing science over market hype for years. More transparency for a product, that may potentially help save a life. The consumer should know what's in the product, as well as the whys and hows. Hopefully, one of these manufacturers will step up.

OCT

 

[Double_J]

I personally have been hit with OC spray three times in my life. The first time was when I was about 9 years old, some friends and I found a can and thought it would be fun to see how bad it burns. IT BURNED BAD for about 45 minutes before it wore off. The second time was when I got certified to carry OC for my security guard post. I decontaminated after the spraying and was fine after about 5-10 minutes. The third time was a prank by a friend who had some that had expired. He thought it was no longer hot and he gave me a face full of it. I can say it still burned pretty good, but it was not as strong of a spray and that the MACE brand sucks compared to the others on the market.

I have also used it once when I was doing security. The property I was working had a problem with raccoons as pests. I was outside eating lunch one night when one of them started approaching me looking for a handout. I calmly sprayed him with a quick little dose and saw him drag his face along the ground trying to get it off. I did not ever have another problem with any of the raccoons during my time on that sight, and the trash cans were no longer being tipped over/raided.

 

[Double_J]

I do know two people on opposite ends of the TRPV1 receptor scale. One person is totally immobilized by the slightest amount of OC hitting his face. The other guy can bath in the stuff and not feel it, or as he puts it "it is a warm tingling sensation like when you get shampoo in your eyes." Both of these individuals were certified to carry and use OC, and both know how to fight past the pain/reaction.

I have also heard of people who would spray themselves daily so as to build up an "immunity" to the effects of the spray. I don't know how effective that technique is, and I have no desire to find out.

 

[OC-Trainer]

I personally have been hit with OC spray three times in my life. The first time was when I was about 9 years old, some friends and I found a can and thought it would be fun to see how bad it burns. IT BURNED BAD for about 45 minutes before it wore off. The second time was when I got certified to carry OC for my security guard post. I decontaminated after the spraying and was fine after about 5-10 minutes. The third time was a prank by a friend who had some that had expired. He thought it was no longer hot and he gave me a face full of it. I can say it still burned pretty good, but it was not as strong of a spray and that the MACE brand sucks compared to the others on the market.

I have also used it once when I was doing security. The property I was working had a problem with raccoons as pests. I was outside eating lunch one night when one of them started approaching me looking for a handout. I calmly sprayed him with a quick little dose and saw him drag his face along the ground trying to get it off. I did not ever have another problem with any of the raccoons during my time on that sight, and the trash cans were no longer being tipped over/raided.

Thanks for sharing your experiences with OC. Using it on a raccoon is the perfect example too. Mountain lions, feral pigs, elephants... Elephants really hate OC. I've heard of people using it on feral cat fights. The USPS has been carrying dog deterrent (weak human pepper spray) for decades to deal with the little ankle bitters. They carry either Back-OFF or Halt.

OCT

 

[OC-Trainer]

I do know two people on opposite ends of the TRPV1 receptor scale. One person is totally immobilized by the slightest amount of OC hitting his face. The other guy can bath in the stuff and not feel it, or as he puts it "it is a warm tingling sensation like when you get shampoo in your eyes." Both of these individuals were certified to carry and use OC, and both know how to fight past the pain/reaction.

I have also heard of people who would spray themselves daily so as to build up an "immunity" to the effects of the spray. I don't know how effective that technique is, and I have no desire to find out.

No doubt. Someone can definitely fight through the pain of OC and continue to aggress. But they'll be doing it with their eyes closed. Which of course is what makes pepper spray such a great less than lethal solution. You in a physical confrontation vs someone who temporarily can't see. I'll take those odds any day.

OCT

 

[RustyShackelford]

Rendering aid, decon, detaining subjects.....

Hi OCT:
My questions apply more to tactics and actions rather than OC systems or gear.

What's your personal take or training doctrine for offering first aid or decon to a sprayed subject?
What formal actions or steps should a armed professional(PI, security guard, off duty cop, federal agent, etc) do? What should a private citizen or CCW holder do(other than flee & call 911)?

I did take a formal class for chemical agents/Mace in the mid 2000s, www.S2institute.com . The instructor was a SE Asia combat veteran(USMC) & a retired K9 officer with a small PD. He was top notch. I learned a lot.
The one point I did take issue with was for providing aid/decon to a detained subject. I, personally would rather EMTs or fire-rescue apply any wipes or help the detainee.
My reasons are that the subject & maybe any "witnesses" could make fake or bogus claims of abuse or misconduct.
I'd also think a sprayed subject would be even more aggressive or violent if treated.
Doing security work & LE, most subjects or suspects I've had contact with in calls for service or field interviews were either unstable or intoxicated/drunk.

Rusty

 

[OC-Trainer]

Hi OCT:
My questions apply more to tactics and actions rather than OC systems or gear.

What's your personal take or training doctrine for offering first aid or decon to a sprayed subject?
What formal actions or steps should a armed professional(PI, security guard, off duty cop, federal agent, etc) do? What should a private citizen or CCW holder do(other than flee & call 911)?

I did take a formal class for chemical agents/Mace in the mid 2000s, www.S2institute.com . The instructor was a SE Asia combat veteran(USMC) & a retired K9 officer with a small PD. He was top notch. I learned a lot.
The one point I did take issue with was for providing aid/decon to a detained subject. I, personally would rather EMTs or fire-rescue apply any wipes or help the detainee.
My reasons are that the subject & maybe any "witnesses" could make fake or bogus claims of abuse or misconduct.
I'd also think a sprayed subject would be even more aggressive or violent if treated.
Doing security work & LE, most subjects or suspects I've had contact with in calls for service or field interviews were either unstable or intoxicated/drunk.

Rusty

Hi Rusty,

Glad to hear you had great instructor and training in OCAT. The professional typically has the duty to decon the subject immediately. This various of course from department to department, but generally speaking, decon must be started immediately when compliance is obtained. Whether or not the officers or EMTs decon the subject also various. I agree, I would much rather EMTs do the decon. This is one of the reasons LEO and COs prefer the Level 1 OC. The decon times are much shorter and easier.

For the citizen, it is a completely different story. There is no chance that I will assist a thug decon that I just sprayed. As far as I'm concered, they're own their own. I'm dousing them, moving, and then taking off. To my knowledge, there isn't any law on the books that requires a citizen to offer any help in that situation.

Hope that answers your questions.

OCT

 

[denster]

OCT

Any opinion on Fox 25ftfm 5.3 foam OC?

 

[Airman Basic]

Our department has issued Freeze+p for years. Any opinions?

 

[SleazyRider]

1. A dozen or so years ago I was camped out in Glacier National Park and observed my ill-informed neighbors spraying the perimeter of their campsite with bear spray to ward off Ursus arctos horribilis (grizzly bear) proactively. This caused great amusement among the more seasoned---not to mention upwind---campers, but a discussion ensued where someone claimed that the faint smell of pepper will actually attract bears. Have you ever heard of this?

2. Would you recommend pepper spray to bicyclists? If so, how would it be carried and deployed?

My compliments on a very informative thread!

... Live in the "Windy City?" Go with stream or foam ...

As an aside, and in a lighthearted vein, I remember reading somewhere that Chicago is no windier than any other city. It was apparently so-named by a newspaper editor who was referring to local politicians.