Pepper Spray--The Truth

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Johnny_B_Goode said:
I can say this much about the Sabre 3 in 1 it does not burn the skin. A can deployed in my pocket. Anything around your pocket is tender skin. It did not burn a bit. I was under the influence of Oreo's and milk. I went into the bathroom and started the shower. I picked the bathmat and undressed. Then I got in the shower. The tear gas probably had a good minute to give me any burning sensation. Nothing, nada! It bothered the dog more than me. The dog ran and hid under the bed.

It is not military strength tear gas. I have experienced military tear gas. If it gets on your bare skin you feel it. The tear gas chambers are just strong enough to let you feel it, nothing like a tear gas cannon would produce to disperse a crowd or you need to defend yourself. You would have to hit an attacker dead in the eye to make them feel anything. An experienced street fighter is not going to square up so you can spray them in the face.

I think I will stick to my Buck knife if I have to defend myself or my loved ones without a gun.
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Johnny, you touched upon two very important points: It is very difficult to hit a moving target in such a small area like the eyes. That is precisely why cone spray patterns are recommended for those who aren't going to train. The cone pattern all but eliminates the need for extreme accuracy. It is more affected by wind, but it is worth the trade-off as long as you don't have a pre-existing lung condition.

Regarding the blended defense sprays. I only recommend pure OC products. In my opinion, (which is based on both experience and an understanding of human physiology) the CS/CN added to these formulas is a step down from pure OC. CS/CN, as it's used in modern defense spray, is useless.

Edit: Love the Oreo line BTW.

OCT
 
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Looking at the UDAP brand, it is mostly sold through their website.

The HOTTEST is in a FOG type spray, not a stream or cone?? Does that matter?

Is there a equivalent strength brand we can get online at other stores like Midway, Cabellas etc?? (Cabellas lists the brand but not the Worlds Hottest)
 
Rule3 said:
Looking at the UDAP brand, it is mostly sold through their website.

The HOTTEST is in a FOG type spray, not a stream or cone?? Does that matter?

Is there a equivalent strength brand we can get online at other stores like Midway, Cabellas etc?? (Cabellas lists the brand but not the Worlds Hottest)
Click to expand...
Rule3, I checked out Cabela's site. The pictures are confusing. They will show the WH pic, but not mention in the write up. This is the item #IK-420449. The picture shown is a WH product. That said, if it were me, I would just order from UDAP's main site. You'll be guaranteed the freshest (and correct) product. Pepper spray does have a shelf-life of anywhere from 3-5 years. Who knows how old the stock is at Cabela's if your lucky enough to get the right one based on their descriptions.

Also, the term fog and cone are used interchangeably. All WH UDAP's are fog/cone.

OCT
 
This brings up a good point, though, OC-Trainer -- do your research and homework, read up and get instruction regarding the brand you're considering, and get the best, most potent spray possible and legal for your state. I think most people see OC sprays hanging off racks near cash registers and in big box stores and buy it blindly, assuming it'll set anyone's face on fire and get them out of any situation. Most probably don't even test fire their purchase.
 
OC-Trainer said:
If anyone would like a personal recommendation, I'd be happy to help. Just tell me a little about your lifestyle and the conditions in which it will be primarily be used and I'll point you in the right direction. Thank you all for the questions and hospitality!

OCT
Click to expand...

All right:

I work in a college library. Campus PD are competent folks, but are located on the diametrically opposite side of campus [ergo, delayed response.] I'm behind the granola curtain in the PRK, so let's not waste time discussing the vain hope of getting permission from the campus PD for a CCW; even in states with a pro-CCW population, it's generally tough to get permission to carry on-campus from the relevant authority...

So, an active shooter appears at the front door, which is <20ft away. There is no egress from our service desk that isn't exposed, but there is a "blind canyon" area behind & to one side of the desk as a possible zone of retreat. Not much chance of doing more than forcing AS to duck by throwing some light office supplies off the desk [handful of pens, a stapler perhaps], dropping down out of sight behind the waist high barrier & scurrying for concealment [not cover; a reasonably high powered air rifle could penetrate the divider] behind screened area.

What's the best unit for keeping in that back processing area to use on an AS as he comes around the corner? Furthest he'd be would at the bottleneck would be 10ft from nearest concealment (shelving unit.) Bear spray? Not a fog, I'd be in the same area & the only way out would be transiting the fogged zone. Who makes a cost-effective practice sprayer so that non-hazardous experience get be obtained w/ the spray pattern & trigger/aiming? The Kel-Tec Guardian is a joke: the practice gun costs only 10% less than the real deal, & still only comes w/ 2 shots [not reloadable!] Greedy Swiss gnomes... [KT's unit is a rebrand from Switzerland. Lovely little country, but everything is pricey!]

Look, I'm not expecting to survive the scenario, I recognize that the nature of the structure/business model/building layout makes that a near impossibility. But I'd like to increase the odds of stopping or slowing the nutjob at the entrance long enough for people elsewhere in the building make their escape thru the fire exits & campus PD to get on the scene. And I'd like to keep my job in the meantime. :)
 
Surculus said:
All right:

I work in a college library. Campus PD are competent folks, but are located on the diametrically opposite side of campus [ergo, delayed response.] I'm behind the granola curtain in the PRK, so let's not waste time discussing the vain hope of getting permission from the campus PD for a CCW; even in states with a pro-CCW population, it's generally tough to get permission to carry on-campus from the relevant authority...

So, an active shooter appears at the front door, which is <20ft away. There is no egress from our service desk that isn't exposed, but there is a "blind canyon" area behind & to one side of the desk as a possible zone of retreat. Not much chance of doing more than forcing AS to duck by throwing some light office supplies off the desk [handful of pens, a stapler perhaps], dropping down out of sight behind the waist high barrier & scurrying for concealment [not cover; a reasonably high powered air rifle could penetrate the divider] behind screened area.

What's the best unit for keeping in that back processing area to use on an AS as he comes around the corner? Furthest he'd be would at the bottleneck would be 10ft from nearest concealment (shelving unit.) Bear spray? Not a fog, I'd be in the same area & the only way out would be transiting the fogged zone. Who makes a cost-effective practice sprayer so that non-hazardous experience get be obtained w/ the spray pattern & trigger/aiming? The Kel-Tec Guardian is a joke: the practice gun costs only 10% less than the real deal, & still only comes w/ 2 shots [not reloadable!] Greedy Swiss gnomes... [KT's unit is a rebrand from Switzerland. Lovely little country, but everything is pricey!]

Look, I'm not expecting to survive the scenario, I recognize that the nature of the structure/business model/building layout makes that a near impossibility. But I'd like to increase the odds of stopping or slowing the nutjob at the entrance long enough for people elsewhere in the building make their escape thru the fire exits & campus PD to get on the scene. And I'd like to keep my job in the meantime. :)
Click to expand...
Hello Surculus, thanks for the question...

If you want to follow the letter of the law in CA, then you carry unit can not exceed 2.5 oz. Since fog/cone patterns are out of the question, you best bet would be either a stream or foam. I'm leaning towards a foam unit for the type of scenario/situation/environment you describe. It comes with a wall mount and glow in the dark actuator.

http://www.sabrered.com/servlet/the-69/SABRE-PEPPER-HOME-UNIT/Detail

Here it is in action:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhZvvR1Xx-w&spfreload=10

Great coverage if the perp is wearing glasses/mask. You won't be able to get an inert (practice unit), your only option is to buy two.

Hope this helps answer your question. If you need anything else, please let me know.

OCT
 
Hi OCT...

Hello OCT,
I read over a few recent topic posts and wasn't sure if it was covered yet, but what is your opinion of First Defense Red Label, 1.3% OC spray?
It's sold here: www.PoliceHQ.com .
The spray is a cone style and comes in Mk III and IV sizes.
You recently stated the Fox Labs Mean Green might contain a small amount of alcohol. :uhoh:
Would the First Defense Red Label agent(s) be better with Tasers or EDWs?

I still like my Vexor OC but may buy a new Mk IV size micro-spin or cone format. Without the stupid yellow "safety" :rolleyes:

RS
 
RustyShackelford said:
Hello OCT,
I read over a few recent topic posts and wasn't sure if it was covered yet, but what is your opinion of First Defense Red Label, 1.3% OC spray?
It's sold here: www.PoliceHQ.com .
The spray is a cone style and comes in Mk III and IV sizes.
You recently stated the Fox Labs Mean Green might contain a small amount of alcohol. :uhoh:
Would the First Defense Red Label agent(s) be better with Tasers or EDWs?

I still like my Vexor OC but may buy a new Mk IV size micro-spin or cone format. Without the stupid yellow "safety" :rolleyes:

RS
Click to expand...
Hello Rusty,
First Defense (by Def-tech) and Vexor (by Zarc) are both excellent OC products. I especially like the Level III (1.33, 1.45% respectively) by them. I agree with you about the micro-spin actuator ;) The only brands currently on the market that I personally would trust with Taser/EDWs are: Security Equipment Coorperation's (Sabre) LE, Safarialand's (Def-Tech), and Zarc, makers of Vexor. These 3 brands are used worldwide by LE, corrections, border patrol, etc. There are other great pepper spray products on the market, but when it comes using OC with EDWs-- I would stick with those three.

Thanks for the question, and please let me know if you need anything else.

OCT
 
@ Rusty

You may have already read this article regarding EDWs and OC. It's hard to read in the PDF and some/most of the products are no longer around, but it gives you and idea of the testing protocols. Although the info is 8 years old, the brands I mentioned above are still the most trusted when it comes to OC & EDWs usage.

http://www.seattle.gov/music/nightlife/crtlesslethal.pdf
 
OCT,

With respect to bear sprays. It seems this stuff is pretty potent, like 2.0% MC? I am referring to the Sabre Red product "Frontier"

Is it wrong or unlawful to use this seemingly more potent product on a human aggressor? If so why or why not? Is it overkill, it would seem to me (a simpleton) to be akin to the .38 Special vs. .357 magnum.

What about the Frontier product in particular gives it a reported "35 ft" vs 20 ft. range over competitors.

Thanks,
Dave
 
Sox said:
OCT,

With respect to bear sprays. It seems this stuff is pretty potent, like 2.0% MC? I am referring to the Sabre Red product "Frontier"

Is it wrong or unlawful to use this seemingly more potent product on a human aggressor? If so why or why not? Is it overkill, it would seem to me (a simpleton) to be akin to the .38 Special vs. .357 magnum.

What about the Frontier product in particular gives it a reported "35 ft" vs 20 ft. range over competitors.

Thanks,
Dave
Click to expand...
Hey Dave,

Technically speaking, it is unlawful to use bear spray against a human aggressor. Will charges be pressed if you are using it as a last ditch self-defense option? Highly unlikely. If however, someone is using it to commit a crime, then that person is going to be facing some serious legal issues.

Since the EPA oversees the production of bear spray, it carries the same warning labels as a pesticide would-- "It is against federal law to use this product in any manner..." That type of warning. Even though bear spray is the same as "human" pepper spray, it is considered a pesticide in the eyes of the law.

Regarding Frontier: all bear spray is the same strength, (must be at least 1% MC and no greater than 2%) Sabre just adds more propellant and PSI to their formula.

I've attached two videos that show bear spray being used agains humans. The first, no charges were pressed. The second, (cross-dressing thieves, you can't make this stuff up!) they throw the book at them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpIjtVDqiIg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gxm7pVoteHw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIPD5kwpF4c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxAv7nh6z5s
 
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If you've read or watched anything regarding pepper spray online then you most likely came across someone touting wasp spray as a "great alternative" to pepper spray. Even though both bear spray and wasp spray are considered pesticides by the EPA, these products are very different.

Unlike pepper spray, wasp spray may very well cause permanent damage to the eyes of a human being. No one really knows since it's never been study in that regard. Therein lies the problem. It has never been proven to work like pepper spray at all. It won't activate the capsaicin receptor (like pepper spray), it most likely will cause permanent damage to the eyes (unlike pepper spray), and last but definitely not least, you are almost guaranteed to be sued if you use it on anything other than wasps. All of these internet "experts" who go on and on about "just use wasp spray" really have know idea what they are talking about. They just keep spreading the same old, tired rhetoric because some other knucklehead recommend using it on Youtube.

Even though wasp spray carries the same exact federal warning as bear spray, the potential legal ramifications alone makes using wasp spray (as a premeditated self-defense weapon) a horrible choice indeed.

The first two videos are the truth about wasp spray for self-defense. In the last link the "expert" recommends wasp spray. That clown has know idea what he is talking about. Ignore his advice. I added it just to show how this garbage is spread.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgC5TQWIF2k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rR19OmAfQLc&spfreload=10

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GlUD4sGTS4
 
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Thanks for tackling that about wasp spray. We've had people on this very forum go that route. I always point out that the active ingredient and other contents of a given wasp spray vary from brand to brand, and even among the same brand. Therefore there is no way to know what will happen if used and any anecdotal evidence of usage is nearly worthless.
 
@ glistam

No problem-- happy to help.

The wasp spray in place of pepper spray is probably the oldest farce out there when it comes to this topic. It is unfortunate that there's so much misinformation about OC spray. Hopefully this thread will help clear up some of the confusion.

OCT
 
I have a question. I saw some pepper spray at Harbor Freight, and was wondering, can I use this stuff (or any kind) in my chili? I'm starting to get numb to the ghost peppers and want to kick it up a notch.
 
ZZZ said:
I have a question. I saw some pepper spray at Harbor Freight, and was wondering, can I use this stuff (or any kind) in my chili? I'm starting to get numb to the ghost peppers and want to kick it up a notch.
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Thanks for the question, ZZZ.

You definitely do not want to consume pepper spray. Although the active ingredient (oleoresin capsicum) is the very same used in hot sauce, it is much, much stronger. More importantly--the solvents and different chemicals used to create the sprays can be toxic in larger doses.

Contrary to popular belief the Bhut Jolokia, AKA "ghost pepper" is not the hottest in the world. That distinction currently belongs to the "Carolina Reaper." So if I were looking to add more kick to my food, I would pick up some Reapers.

Good luck and keep a lot of milk or sour cream on stand-by!

OCT
 
When I was in college I became interested in the idea of doing a chem analysis on the three varieties of Dad's coffee. Unfortunately in the lab I would just get some brewed and would be called away. When I returned the post grads would have consumed every bit and I would have to start over. (Theft is rampant in academia.) At my uncle's suggestion I soaked habaneroes in grain alcohol overnight and put three drops in the liter of coffee. No one bothered my products afterward.

So, if you really want to kick up the spice let five or six soak in alcohol overnight (everclear works just fine) and use the alcohol in addition to the peppers you already use. The alcohol will boil out and leave the active ingredients. Leave the pepper spray for other uses. I really don't believe it's slated for internal use.
 
@Officers'Wife

Great tip! You basically just described how the first pepper sprays where made.

@SleazyRider

That is a nice link. Capsaicin is such an incredible compound. To think that something that a plant uses to ward of mammals like us (in order to ensure it's own survival) would have so many other uses is fascinating.

@IWAC

My pleasure--happy to help. Although different brands will come and go, the bulk of the info in this thread will hold true no matter what. I'm glad you found this info helpful.

OCT
 
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