Perfect vs. Practical

[harrygunner]

Hey, the 10mm is the perfect practical round.

 

[Legionnaire]

I'd have put myself in the "practical" camp ... until I started playing with a .243 Ackley Improved.

 

[Bushpilot]

I'd have put myself in the "practical" camp ... until I started playing with a .243 Ackley Improved.

Ha.. yeah, that reminded me of an xp-100 in 7mm IHMSA... So, I guess I have some "perfect" exceptions to the practical...

 

[FL-NC]

Everything is perfect when its new. In the 30+ years I have been heavily involved in shooting sports, it seems like about the only rounds that came out that had any "staying power" are the 40 S&W (which is falling in popularity, but isn't going anywhere due to the millions in circulation and the fact that even wolf and similar companies are making affordable ammo), and it looks like the 6.5 CM is moving into a place of stabilization. The 300 B-O is a boutique round too (in my opinion) but it is fitting nicely into several niches, like the suppressor crowd as well as the "loud shooters" who want more mass flying downrange from their AR's (not to mention the ease in building an AR in this caliber, or just converting an existing one either by a 2nd upper or simply changing the barrel and FH.) There are even hunters in my area that embrace the Ruger American ranch in 300 B-O as a cheap, light recoiling and reasonably accurate rifle for deer and hog, using standard velocity soft points.
I will now present a tribute to some of the "perfect" rounds of the past, both distant and recent (cue somber music): 41 magnum, 38 super, 41 AE, 400 cor-bon, 44 automag, 45 grizzly magnum, 38/45, 327 magnum, 10 mm, 357 Sig, 45 GAP, 50 AE, 6 mm Rem, 6.8 SPC, various "short magnums", that weird round that fired electrically, 22 remington, 450 Marlin, 408 chey-tac, .... and so on.

 

[.308 Norma]

Ha.. yeah, that reminded me of an xp-100 in 7mm IHMSA

Yeah, I have one of those too. But hey, it has to be at least as “practical” as the two 10.5” Ruger 44 Mag “Super Silhouettes” my wife had back in our IHMSA days.

Speaking of practical though, I’ve heard there’s some kind of handgun competition called “Practical Pistol.” I don’t know what kind of handguns are used in it, nor what qualifies them as “practical,” but if a person had a pistol that met all of those qualifications (whatever they are) and with it, that person won every Practical Pistol match they entered, wouldn’t they be able to claim they have the “perfect" practical pistol?

 

[herrwalther]

Practical availability is absolutely an important determining factor in caliber choice. It doesn't matter if it is a rifle or handgun. Is 44Mag more powerful than 9mm? Clearly. But how often do you see .44Mag sitting on the shelf in common stores? Not too much anymore. Is 6.5 Creedmoor a ballistically better round than 30-30? Of course. Does it fill as many freezers of deer every hunting season? Not anywhere close. I have never seen 6.5 on a gun store shelf, but always plenty of 30-30.

 

[CDW4ME]

For carry, practical is losing to my perception of better
My chrono averages for 5 shots:
10mm Handload 180 Nosler @ 1,228 fps / 603# KE - recoil energy 9.2 - PF 221
10mm Handload Nosler 150 JHP @ 1,402 fps / 655# KE - recoil energy 9.4 - PF 210
45 acp Federal 230 HST @ 891 fps / 406# KE - recoil energy 7.8 - PF 205
45 acp Remington Golden Saber 185 +P @ 1,157 fps / 550# KE - recoil energy 9.0 - PF 214

10mm has more KE plus an extra round capacity in 1911 platform.
Recoil is not much different subjectively, supported by calculations.
Underwood offers the same Nosler bullets, 150 gr. @ 1,500 fps and 180 gr. @ 1,250 fps

Couple of my 10mm carry pistols, Delta and Kimber TLE:

 

[.308 Norma]

Practical availability is absolutely an important determining factor in caliber choice. It doesn't matter if it is a rifle or handgun. Is 44Mag more powerful than 9mm? Clearly. But how often do you see .44Mag sitting on the shelf in common stores?

You have a point there herrwalther, but while "practical availability" is an important determining factor, it's not the only "important determining factor." Using your own example of a 44Mag being "more powerful" than a 9mm, I have to say that the 44Mag is not at all "practical" as a self-defense round for most people in most situations. And available or not, a 9mm is not at all "practical" for tipping over 45 pound steel rams that are 200 meters away at a metallic silhouette shoot.

 

[fjblair]

Uhhhh....your position has absolutely zero meaning.

Shooting is itself for a very vast majority is totally impractical. What is practical about punching holes in paper? What exactly have you achieved? What’s practical about breaking clay targets or blowing holes in cans?

You’re trying to justify cheaper caliber choices because they cost less. Bull crap. I can justify my choices because they are more accurate, shoot flatter. If you wanna say “adequate”, maybe. But that’s adequate for you. If I’m a world class shooter I “need” a $3,500 Anschutz .22 with a $1,500 scope to complete.

So I can punch holes in paper in a tighter cluster than the next guy. Which is totally impractical

I have a friend that has spent probably $1,500 for turkey hunting and hast gotten a bird. You could buy an awful lot of turkeys for that kind of money, far more than you could kill in a lifetime. Nothing practical about it.

There are no hobbies that are practical. Now, I shoot and hunt because I enjoy it and don’t have to justify the expense to anybody.

"Zero meaning"? People can have different perspectives, there is no wrong or right. I don't see how the OP's practical approach to the hobby is not valid. Everybody "justifies" the hobby one way or another.

 

[peacemaker45]

Reloading does change things. With some up-front investment, you can turn oddballs into shooters, (my summer of the .30 Luger comes to mind here.) You can fine tune your loads, to make something that's not quite perfect in factory loadings, (the .44 is an ideal example. I tend to think that factory .44 Spl is a little wimpy, but factory .44 Mag is excessive for most general shooting. Answer? Load up some .44 Mediums!) into something that is.

The other aspect, is that one tends to buy more guns in a few calibers. "But I've already got .30-06 dies, and .30-06 brass, and .30-06 bullets, and powders that .30-06s like to eat. I think I'll buy a .30-06. Getting all set up for, say, 7MM Mag could cost a couple of hundred over and above the purchase price. It's like a sales tax on new calibers.

 

[Bushpilot]

Reloading does change things.... Also, I think that owning and reloading for vintage or collectable guns is another separate subject. I have guns that I reload for and shoot that are old collectables that fit into neither the "perfect" nor "practical" categories. In that sense I do have a lot of guns chambered for "oddball" cartridges. I should clarify my previous remarks, the guns that I have with the intention of using regularly for a purpose are usually chambered for "practical" cartridges... If I limited myself to old guns chambered for "practical" cartridges I wouldn't have much left to choose from...

 

[redneck2]

You guys still don’t get it, so I’ll make it real clear.

My both my grandfathers were practical. They had a double barrel shotgun and a .22. Period. There was nothing that they needed to shoot that they couldn’t handle with those two. Everything from rabbits and possums to steers they would slaughter.

You would get either two shotgun shells or three.22 rounds which they bought one at a time during The Depression. If you took a round, you’d better come home with something to eat for dinner. That was practical. They didn’t go out and blast hundreds of rounds at targets and tin cans.

We waste more ammo in one day than they did in a lifetime. When I was a kid we had an old bolt .22 behind the back door. It would be pulled out maybe once every couple months to whack a groundhog or raccoon.

So, don’t give me your crap about practical. You’re just trying to justify a hobby. I don’t need to justify it to anybody. And I don’t pretend it’s practical. It’s not. Doesn’t have to be. I do it because it’s fun and I enjoy it.

Idiots go to Canada fishing and get pissed because they can’t bring back more than a few fish. Why? How does it justify a $2,000 trip because you bring back 20 fish instead of 10?

Chimps try to justify poaching because they’re “feeding their family”. Being practical. Bull crap. They’re too lazy to get a job and want to screw off “hunting” at night with a spotlight. They’ll waste a couple weeks and risk jail time trying to get the same amount of meat that they could legally buy if they worked a job. Except work is a foreign concept

 

[Wisco]

You guys still don’t get it, so I’ll make it real clear.

My both my grandfathers were practical. They had a double barrel shotgun and a .22. Period. There was nothing that they needed to shoot that they couldn’t handle with those two. Everything from rabbits and possums to steers they would slaughter.

You would get either two shotgun shells or three.22 rounds which they bought one at a time during The Depression. If you took a round, you’d better come home with something to eat for dinner. That was practical. They didn’t go out and blast hundreds of rounds at targets and tin cans.

We waste more ammo in one day than they did in a lifetime. When I was a kid we had an old bolt .22 behind the back door. It would be pulled out maybe once every couple months to whack a groundhog or raccoon.

So, don’t give me your crap about practical. You’re just trying to justify a hobby. I don’t need to justify it to anybody. And I don’t pretend it’s practical. It’s not. Doesn’t have to be. I do it because it’s fun and I enjoy it.

Idiots go to Canada fishing and get pissed because they can’t bring back more than a few fish. Why? How does it justify a $2,000 trip because you bring back 20 fish instead of 10?

Chimps try to justify poaching because they’re “feeding their family”. Being practical. Bull crap. They’re too lazy to get a job and want to screw off “hunting” at night with a spotlight. They’ll waste a couple weeks and risk jail time trying to get the same amount of meat that they could legally buy if they worked a job. Except work is a foreign concept

Glad you cleared that up!

But what’s a chimps?

 

[CoalTrain49]

I like to shoot a lot so I'm all about ammo cost. Two of the cartridges I swore I would never use was 9 mm and 223. Well guess what, when I started reloading I found out that military cartridges can be your friend. I had a few 45's (1911) and a few .357's so I naturally started reloading for those. 9 mm and .223/5.56 never interested me until a few years ago. I always thought of them as wimp cartridges. Then I joined a private range and started looking at what everyone else was shooting....9 mm and .223/5.56. The brass bucket always had 100 pieces of brass for the taking, so I took some. Not having anything in 9 mm or .223/5.56 I decided to buy both. I started reloaded those and it became apparent that 9 mm was the cheapest pistol cartridge and .223/5.56 was the cheapest rifle cartridge to reload. Brass was free and all I wanted. Actually more than all I wanted. I just sold 2K of .223/5.56 because I had collected too much for my own use.

I now have two 9 mm pistols and two .223 rifles. I still have all the other pistols and I still shoot them but I'm finding that I shoot the ones that are the least expensive to reload for the most.

If I were a hunter I'd probably follow the same path. I have lots of pick up .308 brass and that would probably be my one and only 30 caliber rifle.

 

[huntsman]

My idea of a practical handgun is an LCP. because I always have it with me, some guys will reject the caliber or complain about sights and grip. But try hanging a heavier gun on a pair of sweatpants or shorts.

Justify what you want but a handgun that’s not carried frequently can’t be “practical”

 

[Demi-human]

I am not practical. At all. It is a blessed curse.

Thirty inch twenty-twos to fifty caliber handguns, four fifty Bushmaster ARs to the new Valkyrie. Snubbies and full sized. I am a loose association of specialty niches...

Loud to quiet, big and small, if it's a gun, I love 'em all.

 

[Bushpilot]

Two of the cartridges I swore I would never use was 9 mm and 223.

Initially I felt the same way about the 9mm... I had a colt 1911 45 acp early on and back in the day one of the big debates was always hi cap 9mm vs 45 acp. I used to say I didn't want a "wimpy" 9mm. Now I recognize some of the qualities of the 9mm and although I still like the 45 I actually own more 9mms then 45s...

 

[CoalTrain49]

So, don’t give me your crap about practical. You’re just trying to justify a hobby. I don’t need to justify it to anybody. And I don’t pretend it’s practical. It’s not. Doesn’t have to be. I do it because it’s fun and I enjoy it.

Using what's cheap or available can be practical. Ammo was relatively expensive during the depression because a lot of people didn't have any money to buy much of anything. Employment and incomes really didn't hit a high point until after WW2. People were able to buy new cars and new houses. Were they not being practical, I think not. They bought what they could afford just like they did during the depression.

I use range brass because it's free and I reload. To me that's practical because it cuts the cost of my shooting in half. It fits the needs of my particular situation in a helpful way. I could afford to shoot any cartridge I wanted but far less if I didn't take some practical steps to cut costs.

 

[CoalTrain49]

Glad you cleared that up!

But what’s a chimps?

I think he meant chumps.

 

[CoalTrain49]

Idiots go to Canada fishing and get pissed because they can’t bring back more than a few fish. Why? How does it justify a $2,000 trip because you bring back 20 fish instead of 10?

I spent 2K on a fishing trip to Mexico. Caught more fish and bigger fish than I ever caught in my life. I didn't bring back any fish. I left about 100 lbs of fillets there for the guide to sell as a tip and we ate the rest. He got us into some really big schools of Dorado and it was worth every dime to me. If you are looking for a justification you may be missing the whole point of recreation. Very few people hunt or fish for food anymore, they do it for the sport.

You obviously aren't a sportsman.

 

[redneck2]

If you are looking for a justification you may be missing the whole point of recreation. Very few people hunt or fish for food anymore, they do it for the sport.

That is exactly my point

And, look at the picture in my posts. That’s me, in Canada on a fishing trip. Kapuskasing, Ontario

 

[Hasaf]

. . .

Every decision comes at a cost, not just a benefit. It's important to consider both.

I think most people would be better off wearing out a holster for their current firearm during practice than buying a second "more ideal" handgun and a new holster for it.

I think most people would be better off buying ammo for and practicing with their current hunting rifle than buying another "more ideal" rifle and the ammo and the accessories for it.

I think most people would be better off paying for some professional training than spending money for a "more ideal" handgun than the one they already carry.

Of course, that's not nearly as much fun as being able to fondle a shiny new gun and enjoying buying accessories for it.

This is why nearly all "defensive caliber" pistols have moved off my shortlist. I have what I need, now the focus is on getting better with what I have. There is no magic, defensive pistol that is going to put every round in the ten ring when shooting off hand. It comes down to practice. It makes more sense to crank out a couple thousand rounds than to purchase a "better" pistol.

I find it interesting how my shortlist keeps getting shorter. There are of course two drives of that. The first is that the shortlist directly feeds the "owned" list. The second is the number that I put on my shortlist and then move to my "interested" list. The Interested list also has a column for notes on why a particular firearm is not on the shortlist.

I realize it seems a bit odd to track things this way; but it keeps me from impulse buys. It focuses me on looking for deals on what I really want, not just the shinny object that catches my eye.

Ruger Rifle (bolt) 77/44 .44 Rem Mag 7401 680 2
CZ-USA Rifle (bolt) CZ 455 American .22 LR 2110 350 1
Uberti Revolver 1862 Police .36 C&B 340710 350 2
Remington (reproductoins) Rifle 1863 Zouave .58 Muzzle-load 910.006 or 010S291580 ~450 3
These two substitute for each other
Enfield (Reproductoin) Rifle 1858 2-Band .58 Muzzle-load 910.004 or 010S220577 ~800 2
These two substitute for each other
Crossman PCP Air Rifle Benjamin Discovery .22 pellet BP9M22GP ~400 3 Includes pump

The shortlist

 

[Hokkmike]

In the shooting realm practicality or perfection may not be the mother of ubiquity. Things to be considered in choosing a caliber preference are brand and style of firearms desired, mode/purpose of shooting, effectiveness of desired results, physical limitations of the shooter, availability and type of ammo, carry mode, and other personal considerations. As many combinations and permutations of these factor that may exist define the number of "practical" or "perfect" calibers available.

If we all shot the .30-06 and possessed .45 caliber 1911's the shooting world would be boring and this discussion board would be pointless.

 

[Archie]

I reject the OP's concept of 'perfection'. Perfection in a cartridge means the cartridge delivers the results I seek. For defensive handgun use, the .45 ACP, .45 AR and .44 Special are perfect. For rifles, I find 6.5x55mm (Swedish) and .308 Winchester ideal for general use. There are times, .22 Hornet and .32-20 Winchester are ideal.

I find more current shooters prefer .223 Remington in an AR plaform preferable as they can't handle recoil and prefer to shoot lots and lots.

Results. Either game in the bag, a very tight shot group or being the one writing the report and going home rather than not writing and going to the morgue. Not sure how I classify in this.