perhaps shtf, perhaps not scenario #1

[bukijin]

Not "down-under" unfortunately
Marlin 336 30-30 and a couple of boxes of ammo in the pocket. That would take care of just about anything I can envisage.

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

No it hasn't. scout/snipers don't use autos. ask an african hunter what gun he uses. it's not a semi.

both of those instances fall under the scope of this thread. belittling other people's choices does not.

 

[Soap]

Kurt- Sorry I was curt in my response (bwaahhahahaha!) Bad puns aside, you raise some very valid points. If the 25 Muslim extremists are waiting for me outside, I'm moving 180 degrees in the opposite direction. I don't like the idea of fighting 1 on 25 for any reason. Concerning other firearms, you're right, I assumed that I could still carry my 1911. As for duration, I'd rather have the long range bolt gun over a long period of time by myself. Any sort of fighting I would do by myself would be shooting and scooting. I'm not going to stick around John Wayne style for a showdown. My first choice was actually my AR but then the more I thought about it I figured that the 700P was a better choice. Since the situation is completely ambigious (this we completely agree on), I would rather be as far away from the situation as possible until I could find out what is going on, therefore my choice of a long-range scoped bolt action.

Andrew-

The esteemed Mr Flory...

I appreciate it but I'm only 21 for goodness' sake!

 

[Kurt]

No problem intended here AW. Just advancing my opinion on a sometimes controversial topic, and I usually slip in somewhere that it's my opinion. Before I posted the " the whole world has gone semi" line, I wondered who would bring up that 00000.17% of the world who are snipers or African Hunters.

You sure "got me" there.

Daniel, I felt AW's premise here sort of thrust us into the middle of an unknown situation, and escape/evasion wasn't in keeping with the spirit of the post. Loved your pun, now let's work on AW's sense of humor!

 

[Steve Smith]

Andrew, I too wonder how many can say that they are truly GOOD with the guns they chose. We can only hope that they will purpose it in their hearts to become experts with them.

 

[goon]

Exceptions aside….IMO, the folks that chose the hard-hitting semi-autos here should do far better in a larger percentage of these scenarios (and most others), than those that chose the bolt guns, or anything less.

Be that as it may, I don't have a hard hitting semi-auto yet.
The only semi-auto I have is an AK.
It lacks the range, power, and accuracy of my M-39.
If and when I feel the need to fight, I won't be constrained by trying to hold the ground.
On the contrary, I will let the enemy walk right by.
Then, when he thinks the is safe, I will learn how he looks through the sights of one of my rifles.
The accuracy and power to hit far away is more important to me than the ability to spray a hail of lead at someone.

I am saving up for a FAL though.
Why not have both if you can?

 

[Kurt]

Goon - It seems many folks are planning on getting something like a FAL, but for whatever reason haven't yet. With the likes of DSA and all the various levels of parts and parts guns out there, the current climate and availability is just about right.

About your enemy "avoidance" preference, I agree - to a point. I’d agree to let that enemy walk right by me, UNLESS my family, friends or partners are behind me. And a heavy-hitting semiauto gives you options and capabilities like litttle else if such is ever needed.

 

[LostCajun]

M1, 2 bandoliers of Danish, and a 50-cal can of Korean in clips.
(No handloads yet)
Decision time: 6- or 10- inch bayonet?

MMmmmmm..... Danish........
LostCajun

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

I appreciate it but I'm only 21 for goodness' sake!

My pappy told me to respect my elders.

I'm curious, though. Why is engaging multiple hostiles the first thing most people think about and subsistance hunting or just plain shooting for fun the last? the last two are far more likely to happen.

 

[7.62FullMetalJacket]

Because the most violent and unpredictable critter that you will run in to when the SHTF will be two-legged. After we get through that problem, then subsistence can come into play.

 

[Kurt]

I'm far more concerned about those folks that can't see the need for such things.

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

of course i can see the need for it. as soon as i can get up the scratch, i'm going to buy an m-1a of my own. with a plastic stock they're not particularly heavy. and they're in a real caliber. however, thay lack the versatility the boltgun has, since you can't shoot really heavy bullets in an m-1a.

bolt guns and semis both have their place. does one make a better GP gun than the other? I don't know.

 

[Dr.Rob]

I'm pretty sure Steve knows how to shoot.

Case in point though for any and all us armchair commandos...

When it comes to sneaking around in the woods and shooting at things.. how many of you have carried a big bore battle rifle and a dozen mags for a day?

That's where a trusty hunter and his bolt rifle will clean your clock. How many of us are snipers or african game hunters? Well I know more than a few around here. 'Course odds are in here you'll run into one a lot easier than out in the real world.

No I'm not saying that a bolt rifle is a good for CQB or laying down supressive fire or a lot of things that a good hi cap rifle can do, however one man with a bolt action rifle can do a whole lot of damage.

IE: "Get your rifle"

'Whats the matter?"

"Some psycho is on top of the university tower shooting strangers.. we just got deputized."

That's One scenario where your rattle battle 20-30 shot ar-15/ak/fal might not have the guts/range to get after someone behind cover, where good optics would allow you to pick a clean shot through.

Now of course, maybe Steve could use iron sights... but I couldn't.

Scenario again:

"Get your rifle"

"what's up?"

"There's aliens/giant spiders/UN troops landing at the Hardee's up on Route 1."

Well now here is an obvious choice for hi-cap gore splattering "shoot through the damn car Clyde he's hiding behind it" mayhem.

Yet another:

"Get your rifle"

"Whats up?"

"Guy with a chainsaw and a leather mask/escaped con/ just broke into the neighbor's place."

That's where my shotgun, not my Rifle would come off the rack. I'd likely grab slugs, too.


Or the ever popular:

"Get your rifle"

"Whats up?"

"giant crabs are taking over the island":

"Take these bandoliers for my M-1.. and for god's sake make sure we have plenty of butter!"

 

[Warner]

While I might admit to a trusty hunter being able to clean my clock, I trust that I'd have little to fear from such an individual. The other type of folks often travel in groups.

Heck, it's times like that even our trusty hunter may appreciate some semiauto capability.

 

[Soap]

I'm curious, though. Why is engaging multiple hostiles the first thing most people think about and subsistance hunting or just plain shooting for fun the last? the last two are far more likely to happen.

My sentiment exactly. When someone tells me to "Get your rifle!", I immediately think, "Where is the groundhog/raccoon/wild dog/etc.!?" Even my boxing instructor...up until recently Army SF...told me that his one gun would be a Thompson Center Encore, a Scout type, or other scoped bolt .308. This man has "seen the elephant", yet he chooses a relatively non-ninja weapon. Simply because his rifle duties here in the States have nothing to do with "engaging hostiles". When he thinks rifle in the U.S., he thinks hunting due to the fact that it is astronomically more likely that he would hunt with it versus downing "tangos". At least that is the impression that I get.

 

[Warner]

If you're limited in your ability to hunt, you don't eat meat for awhile. If you've decided to limit your capability in the defense arena (like follow-ups), you may die for no good reason.

Any high-speed SF individual's choices shouldn't automatically be suggested as good choices for the masses. Even general army troops or troopers on patrol are no longer issued bolt actions. There's good reasons for that.

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

*shrug* i just don't think that an ar-15/ak/mini-14 is the best general purpose rifle, because it lacks the chutzpah to kill game. they're right handy, though, which is an upshot.


oh the other hand, an m-14 isn't exactly the best, as it's heavy and unhandy. it's got oomph, though, which is nice.


a scout rifle or other light boltgun in .308 can be as handy as a minor caliber semi, and have as much juju as a major caliber one. yes, you can't make follow up shots quite as quickly (you can still make them dang quick) but you gain the ability to carry more water or whatever and the possibility of getting in the first shot.

 

[admar2]

can't kill game with a .223?

hmm.. I've killed a few that would probably disagree.

 

[goon]

Admar2 has a point.
The .223 has alot going for it in the post SHTF apocalyptic world.
Ammo is available and cheap.
The round itself has been used in combat for about 50 years by various countries, and with the right ammo, it is pretty effective.
The guns that fire the round are generally pretty accurate (bolt action sporter, AR-15, even the lowly SAR-3).
It is powerful enough to take deer sized game with well placed shots, but it is still a .22 cal hole on somethng smaller.
The ammo is light, so you can carry alot.

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

it's not an effective round on larger critters, or at longer range though.

the transition point between "this is enough gun if you have okay placement" and "this is not enough gun but you might kill what you're shooting at if your placement is perfect with a little luck" is about deer size.

There are an aful lot of critters i'd not want to face with a .223.

It seems silly to have something as limited as a .223 for a GP rifle.

 

[Weaps]

Since we're doing armchair commando, and I'm sitting in an armchair, I'd have to take two rifles - the ones I own.

The M1917 Remington "Enfield" in .30-06 with one bandolier filled with stripper clips and another bandolier of ammo on a .30cal machine gun canvas belt. That's to "reach out and touch something." I know I can hit with it.

The Mini-14 with the 5 or so reliable mags. It's fairly lightweight and can be slung over the shoulder and bandoliers while using the M1917. If whatever is coming gets in a bit closer, the Mini can then be brought to bear. I know I can hit with that too. At some point if whatever is coming isn't stopped I'm turning tail and heading in the opposite direction. I'm not the army and I don't have to hold ground.

Hey, this is hypothetical right?

 

[Kurt]

Sure Weaps, it’s hypothetical. So let’s hypothesize this: What happens if those “whatevers†that are closing in on you, also have the basic smarts to hide behind things when you cut loose on them with your Mini-14? Chances are that they’d be fairly safe from those 5.56’s.... and your best efforts.

And that’s not the worst part. When you decide to turn tail and run, what happens if your family is behind you and sort of depending on you?

The superior answer to these sorts of situations is a 7.62 semi-auto rifle, and one in a military pattern, as opposed to a sporter. Long range hits and more effective barrier penetration are what you get when you put up with a tad more recoil and weight.

 

[Weaps]

Kurt, if my family is behind me they are armed too. And covering me with what they have. The parameters of the question was "You're going out to do something that requires a rifle. It could be anything. that's the only information you have. What rifle do you grab?"

I posted what I would grab, and my family isn't that big. If it were the immediate family and we were all having a big defend the compound from invaders scenario, then I'd be armed with what I mentioned, my dad would be armed with his .270, mom would be armed with his Marlin 39A, my wife would be armed with my 10/22, and everyone would have pistols for the last ditch effort should all of us miss for some reason.

I'd love to have a FAL or HK-91 to grab with a whole bunch of mags but I don't at the moment. I fully intend to get one (a CETME is most in the budget for the near term) but at the moment there you go.

Oh, and when you say "when you cut loose on them with your Mini-14? Chances are that they’d be fairly safe from those 5.56’s.... and your best efforts." you're saying that the Mini-14 is crap, right? Well, mine isn't.

 

[Kurt]

I wasn't speaking about your Mini-14 Weaps, I was pointing towards the capability ot the 5.56 / .223 rounds to get through to it's intended target.

 

[goon]

The truth is that a semi-auto such as a Garand, M-1A, FAL, etc. would be better. They combine range, power, penetration, and firepower.
But you have what you have and that is what you have.
Right now, I have four rifles that would fit as combat weapons.
A Savage 308, a milled AK, and two Finnish M-39s.
I want a FAL and I plan to get one soon, but I don't have it yet.
The Scout fires a more common round and it is a good, reliable shooter, but it isn't a combat weapon. After about four shots, the rounds start to walk their way off the target, up and right. I think that sustained fire with it may damage it, so it is out.
The AK works well and would hit hard close up, but I can't hit crap with it past two hundred yards. No good for engaging a superior enemy and getting away alive. It is out.
The M-39s are battle proven. They will shoot hard and far and penetrate what is in the way when they get there. They are accurate, reliable rifles.
They are bolt actions, and the Mosin Nagant action is even on the slow side of bolt guns.
But they have my full confidence and I would choose one of them if I had to respond to whatever right now, right here, this very minute with a column of Cuban troops approaching my hometown.

If an '06 and a .223 is what Weaps has, then that is what he has to use.
Can't fault the man for that.