Permanently Locking In The L&L Bushing

[showmebob]

Locking the Lock N Load Bushings

David Wile

Looking at my press last night I believe this would work just fine. It will be quickly reversible with no permanent changes to anything except the LNL bushings and they will still be fully useable.
Please forgive the crudeness of this drawing. I've been buried at work selling real estate and didn't have much time to devote to this.
It will require a round plate the thickness of the top flange (or thinner) of the LNL bushings. The center hole is optional. The edge of the bushings where the drawing shows the plate overlapping the bushings needs to be ground away. This grinding needs to be done slowly and in small increments so as to not remove too much metal.
When the grinding on all bushings is done simply install the bushings, put the plate in place, install your dies and the bushings will be prevented from turning.
Or, at least this is the theory. I have not tested it. It is only an idea that I've spent a few minutes on. Feel free to improve upon it. Let me know if it works. Hope this helps!

 

[BigJakeJ1s]

In general, it is not a good idea to have part of the die's lock ring clamping down on the steel plate, and the rest of the lock ring's circumference unsupported. This will cause the die to tilt in its threads, which could substantially affect runout of the cartridge.

Is the metal plate held by anything other than the clamping force of the die lock rings and the tops of the bushings? If not, you might end up with the entire plate spinning by rotating each of the other die's bushings (think of the plate acting like a big gear, engaging each of the dies/bushings, which act like smaller gears).

You might be able to do this more simply by inserting the die bushing into the press bushing and clocking it to the locked position. Then drill a small vertical hole through the top flange of the die bushing, into the top flange of the press bushing, and installing a pin in the hole, flush with the top of the die bushing. This will be a pretty permanent fix holding the die and press bushings together, unless you figure out a way to remove that pin. If you change your mind, you can always get another press bushing and die bushing and start over.

Andy

 

[showmebob]

BigJakeJ1s

quote (In general, it is not a good idea to have part of the die's lock ring clamping down on the steel plate)
The dies lock ring will not clamp down on the steel plate [round plate the thickness of the top flange (or thinner) of the LNL bushings]
The metal plate is held in place by gravity. It would not spin. If you tried to twist the LNL bushings the edge of the bushing (where ground) would push straight across the plate further locking the other dies in place. The locking effect is very similar to having a lock tang bent up along the flat of a hex nut.
It was my impression that the OP did not want permanent modifications to his press to preserve resale value. If my idea works the only mod made is to the LNL bushings and they would still be useable.

 

[showmebob]

BigJakeJ1s

I'm sorry if I confused you with the drawing. Like I said in the post I am very busy and only had a few minutes to put it together. I should have Not Drawn the entire outer circumference of the bushing as the part where the drawing shows the plate overlapping will be ground away. The plate will lay flat on the press. The notch (if you call it that) that is ground into the bushing will fit snug against the plate.
I would have erased that part of the line but I did it in ink! If it continues to be a problem I will try to redraw it.

 

[David Wile]

Hey Bob,

I have your drawing printed out, and I am going down to look at the press to see if I can get some ideas off of yours. I will report back later.

Best wishes,
Dave

 

[Sport45]

Expanding on showmebob's idea, could the bushings be drilled for safety wire? Then you could lock all 5 together with twisted safety wire.

 

[WV_Vizsla]

How about grinding a flat spot on side of each bushing's top ring... Then roughening a corresponding spot on the top of the LNL frame... Then hot-glue it in place... That stuff is amazing when applied super hot.

I would not want to heat the LNL frame to the temperature that LockTite needs to break it's chemical bond.

Let us know how it works for you.

I solved a loosening powder station by wrapping Teflon tape as others here have, thanks THR LNL readers.

 

[David Wile]

Hey Bob,

I was looking at my press with your drawing in my hand, and I am pretty sure I understand how your idea works. I'll make some comments, and I hope you will tell me if I am on the right track or not.

First I need a washer the same thickness as the top rim of the bushings. If I could make the hole in the washer the same size as the hole in the center of my press head, I could put rod of some sort in the hole of the press and let the washer slip over the rod and fall down on top of five empty bushing that are locked in place. Then, somehow keeping the washer in place without moving, I might scribe a fine line on each bushing where the washer covers the rim of the bushing. Having scribed a curved line on each of the five bushings, I would then remove the metal from the bushings inside the scribed lines. Once the meatal was removed from all five bushings, if I replaced the bushings and locked them in place, I could then simply drop the washer in place, and the washer would keep all five bushings from being unlocked unless the washer was removed. Tell me if I have the idea right at this point.

Assuming I can do the five bushings as I described in the preceeding paragraph, I think I could make some changes to the idea. For example, suppose I only want to lock the bushings in Stations 1, 2, and 4 in place while leaving the bushings in Stations 3 and 5 to be used as normal. I would think I could simply scribe the bushings in Stations 1, 3, and remove the metal from their rims only. With the cut bushings in place in Stations 1, 2, and 4 and no bushings in Stations 3 and 5, I could drop the washer in place for locking Stations 1, 2, and 4 in place. I could then drop bushings in Stations 3 and 5 just letting them rest on the top of the washer. At this point I could scribe the edge of Bushings 3 and 5 on the washer under each. Then I could remove Bushings 3 and 5 and remove the metal from the scribed areas for Bushings 3 and 5. I would then have three bushings with crescent shaped cuts on the rim and a washer with two crescent shaped cuts on it. With the crescent cut bushings in Stations 1, 2, and 4, I could then drop the washer in place so the crescent cuts on the washer align with Stations 3 and 5. The bushings in Stations 1, 2, and 4 would be locked in place with the washer in place, but I would still be able to freely insert and remove the bushings in Stations 3 and 5.

Now tell me, Bob, does that make sense to you, and is that what you had in mind? If something is going over my head here, please let me know. It sounds right to me, but I don't know how difficult it would be to cut the bushings and the washer. In any case, it would not make any permanent change to the press itself.

Best wishes,
Dave Wile

 

[Sport45]

That makes sense to me. If you do it you'll probably want to punch mark the tops of the modified bushings so you'll know which holes they're indexed to.

 

[showmebob]

David

I think you're on the right track.

If you use a center hole in the plate you could bolt it to the press during the scribing process just to insure it would not move. I would keep the plate close to the bushing flange thickness. A little thinner is ok, thicker is not. Make sure to remove metal a little at a time and recheck fit often.

I like your idea to allow some of the bushings to be removed by cutting the crescent shape into the plate. I suppose it might also work out to gain some flexibility by rotating or inverting the finished plate. Seems like there are some possibilities here. Maybe 2 different plate designs would cover a multitude of options?

I wish I had time to build one just for the fun of it! But, right now Salida CO real estate is keeping me very busy.

Keep us posted if you decide to build it. I don't think it would be hard, just precision grinding. I'd like to know any unexpected problems that arise. Send photos if you can.

Good luck.

Bob

 

[realbuffdriver]

Here's my implementation of a set screw. I originally did this because the powder measure kept coming loose, but have since found other ways to deal with the problem. It seems no more involved than the precision grinding, and it allows you to lock some bushings in place and allows others to turn.

Cheers,

BuffDriver

 

[jeepmor]

Do your bushings really come loose that often? I appreciate the endeavour and problem solving provided here, but as stated in my earlier thread, just a "touch" of wrench on my die nut locked to the bushing positively locks that bushing in so tight I cannot get it out with my bare hands. And it's really only a couple pounds of wrench pressure, honest.

I saw this same issue and tried this method and my dies bushings quit giving me any cause for concern.

 

[David Wile]

Hey folks,

I liked Bob's idea and have been measuring to figure out what size washer I should get and everything, and then Buffdriver comes up with another idea and pictures to boot. I haven't gone back down to check my press and bushings to see about drilling, tapping, and putting a set screw in like Buffdriver showed, but I am thinking it may be easier to do the set screw than to work out some bushings and a washer like Bob had me thinking. I am going to check out how much room I have to drill and tap the bushings, and I will let you all know where I am going.

Then Jeepmor raises the question about bushing coming loose that often. Like Jeepmor, in the past year I have also read about some folks complaining that their bushings come loose - especially the powder measure bushing. All I can say is that I still have the original bushings plus a bunch more I bought about eight years ago, and I have never had any of my bushings come loose in use. When I lock them in, they are in until I use a wrench to turn them out.

So my interest in locking the bushing in place is not because it comes loose, but rather, becacuse I would rather the bushing I use for my dies just stay in place so I can change my die sets like I would do on an old single stage.

I will keep you informed.

Best wishes,
Dave Wile

 

[showmebob]

I believe BuffDriver's idea would work fine to keep the dies from working loose under normal use. But for what you want to do Dave, I would think it would be necessary to make a recessed spot in the press for the set screw to protrude into. This might be as simple as drilling a 1/8 inch (dimple if you will) hole in the top of the press. This should keep the bushings from loosening as you remove your dies. Just a thought.
Good luck!

 

[David Wile]

Hey Bob,

I was thinking the same thing when I looked at Buffdriver's pics. I did not like the idea of drilling or making ugly changes to my press, but I thought if I could put some decent set screws in three of my bushings, I would not mind locking the bushing in place and drilling down through the hole and making a small dimple in the press to firmly hold the set screw.

I still have not been down to look at the press and bushings with Buffdriver's idea in mind, but if there is enough room to drill and tap a hole for a set screw, I think that idea may be easier than working on a washer.

Best wishes,
Dave Wile

 

[Walkalong]

As designed, the bushings have a bit of "float" to them, allowing them to "center up" on the brass before the bushing stops moving upwards in its "holder", which should help every operation be more concentric, which can only be good for accuracy etc.

I would not lock them in, especially on one side only, for that very reason.

I am a cheap b******, but I will still be buying, and using, bushings for all of my dies, just for the time savings/convenience, and knowing that each time I put the dies in the press, that they are exactly the same as last time, being anal and all. If I wanted to save money on bushings, I would just screw the dies in and out of a set or two, as needed, but not lock them in.

My 2 cents.

 

[oldreloader]

Floating bushings

if the bushing "float" up wouldn't that pesent a problem seating bullets? Resizing would have enough pressure to take the float out but would it be consistent enough seating bullets? I have a Lee Breechlock and it does the same thing. I'm thinking about sellng it and sticking with my old RCBS JR because of the "float" in the bushing. It's fine otherwise.

 

[Walkalong]

Hasn't posed a problem. They don't move much.

 

[David Wile]

Hey Walk,

I don't think you're right about the L&L bushings "floating" up. I know they have a rubber "O" ring under the top edge, but I am pretty sure it does not allow any upward floating of the bushing once it is locked in place. The locking flutes at the bottom of the bushing slide down their grooves till the "O" ring stops the bushing from going any further downward. It is only when you push down on the bushing (with locked die in it) and slightly compress the "O" ring that you are able to turn the bushing its 1/4 inch turn to lock its bottom flutes in place under the corresponding flutes of the outer bushing receiver.

If I am correct in the mechanics of this, then the bushing istself is actually locked in place from any upward movement. If there is any "float" at all, it would be that the bushing could move downward slightly if downward force were placed on the bushing which would then compress the "O" ring.

With this in mind, I don't see how the L&L bushings and dies can do anything to "center up" the brass on an up stroke "before the bushing stops moving upwards in its 'holder'." My point is that a locked in place bushing cannot move upward at all because the die, the bushing, the bushing "holder" or receiver, and the press itself are all securely locked in place against any upward force. I would suspect there could be some very slight downward movement of the bushing on the down stroke due to the compressing of the "O" ring, but any such movement on the down stroke would have nothing to do with the premise that it could "center up" the brass in any of the dies.

Think about my take on the lock up of the bushings and tell me if I am wrong or missing something.

In any case, I was down looking at my press and bushings to see about implementing Buffdriver's idea of drilling, tapping, and placing a set screw in the bushing to hold it in place. If you look at Buffdriver's pics, you will notice that his drill hole has opened the side of his bushing rim. When I looked at my bushings and press, I just did not think there was enough room between the "O" ring and the edge of the bushing for me to put a tapped hole and set screw. Even if I could put a really small one in the limited space, the set screw would actually be "setting" in the edge of the bushing receiver unit or bushing "holder" as Walk called it. That idea does not appeal to me. I wish the bushing edge were wider so I could drill & tap a hole and have a set screw touch the top of the press instead.

I still don't know what to do. Maybe Bob's washer idea is still worth trying. Also, the idea of using Blue Loc Tite would be OK if it would actually hold the bushings in place. I have used Loc Tite on screw threads, but these bushings are based on rather large flutes that only seat on a rather small total surface.

Hey Walk,

Let me know what you think about my comments on your "floating" concept. I'd like to know if I am wrong. As far as just screwing the dies in the bushings goes, I don't mind screwing dies in and adjusting them in a single stage press. The problem I have is screwing dies into and adjusting them in the L&L bushing which locks and unlocks and is a pain in the neck to get adjusted where I want it. I absolutely agree with all of the folks who say they love changing dies using the L&L bushings - once the die is set up and you are not going to make any further adjustments. I just happen to make frequent changes to my dies and use them back and forth between the L&L press and the single stage presses. When you do what I do, the L&L bushings are a pain in the neck to me.

No matter what, I am pretty sure that I am going to come up with some way to lock the three bushings in place on my press. It will probably be the idea of someone else on the forum, but I am determined to change the working of my bushings to suit my use. And I'll bet Walk a nickel that he's not anywhere near as cheap as I.

Best wishes,
Dave Wile

 

[Walkalong]

The O-Ring is taking up the necessary tolerances, just like the springs in the ball detents take up the slack designed into the shellplate/sub assembly set up.
There has to be a certain amount of slack, and the ball detents keep things snug. Too little slack and the plate binds, too much and it is loose, just enough and the detents are able to work correctly. The O-Ring takes up the slack in the bushing to "bushing holder" fit.

Take an O-Ring off of a bushing and try it in the press. You will see what I mean.

 

[Walkalong]

If there is any "float" at all, it would be that the bushing could move downward slightly if downward force were placed on the bushing which would then compress the "O" ring.

It allows side to side movement to align the brass to the die.

Oh, and I have seen the bushing move up when under a strain from a heavy crimp.