Personal self-defense experience with a handgun

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The Janitor

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I see a lot of folks speculating or repeating what they "know" about the ideal "SD ccw caliber" and "tactical scenarios".

What I want to know, if it is at your discretion(emotionally or legally) to discuss, how many of you have had to use a handgun against another person to defend yourself or another? How many of you have actually even witnessed something along these lines happen in person with your own two eyeballs?

Im very curious to know.
 
I have slept with a pistol under my pillow for neigh onto a quarter of a century.

At the time said pistol happened to be a Russian Makarov.

Some goof tried to break into my bedroom window while I was sleeping.

He was greeted by the business end of Pistolet Makarova!!!

The goblin ran away like the devil has just jammed a red hot poker up his you know where, yelling "don't shoot me"!!

The cops found him cowering in a neighbor's yard.

It turns out he was a two time looser who went down hard by the bow under Arizona's three strikes law.
 
This is one of those questions that is asked here and other boards from time to time. The responders...which will probably represent about 25% of the actual number...generally limit answers to the effect of:

"Yeah. BTDT...but the details won't be forthcoming."

So, if it's wars stories you're after...you'll probably be disappointed.

For the ones that provide accounts of their "Moment of Truth"
and the ensuing firefight in gory detail...you can probably figure they're either yankin' your chain, or just blowin' smoke up your skirt.
 
This is one of those questions that is asked here and other boards from time to time. The responders...which will probably represent about 25% of the actual number...generally limit answers to the effect of:

"Yeah. BTDT...but the details won't be forthcoming."

This pretty much says it all for my part. But people differ.

There's such a whirlwind of legalities and emotional problems for some time after such an incident that one may just want to try to get back to normal at all costs. Even years afterward, one may wonder: What would others think if they knew, especially when one still owns guns? Sometimes even doubts may crop up: Couldn't I have avoided that situation? Couldn't I have done something differently?

So I can understand why many people just don't want to talk about their proactive self-defense situations. Even so brief an incident generally has a profound effect long term, whether one is inclined to talk about it or not.
 
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Well you don't specify that a person had to get shot, so I guess I can answer yes to your question.

I drew and fired in a shop, and I chased a guy with gun still drawn, a few city blocks.

Overall, with analysis from others and a lot of armchair discussions after the event, although I was successful in apprehending the guy and I had a legal right to do so, I did not handle that situation ideally.

Good judgment comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgment.

I originally posted this on TFL:

I got into an unfortunate situation one day and ended up firing a warning shot in a shopping mall. I know, it sounds highly dubious and no doubt there will be those of you who condemn that action outright. But that was the only viable option I saw under the circumstances. In hindsight there were other options, but of course when you are in the middle of a bad situation you don't always think with military precision

So, let me set the scene. Please excuse my rudimentary diagrams. The incident took place in 1995 in a rough part of Johannesburg called Hillbrow. At the time I didn't have a car and I was forced to shop in that area at least on some occasions. The shopping complex was a three storey building with groceries and general goods in the basement, clothing and accessories on the ground floor, and various other items such as kitchen white goods on the first and second floor.
I had just finished getting groceries in the basement and I was at the parcel counter getting my shoulder bag (you aren't allowed to take bags into the shop). While I was standing at the counter I heard one of those security arch alarms go off (you know the kind that detects tagged items). This arch was one of a pair at the entrance to the stairs and the up escalator at the end of the store. A robber had tried to get through the arch with stolen goods and a male security guard had grabbed him by the arm. Here is the layout at that point:

Layout1.jpg

1 = The robber
2 = The male security guard
4 = Me
Shoppers and staff = unmarked dark green
Solid masonry is in black, doors purple. One office was either plywood or drywall, I don't know which (in brown).
The teal blocks on the right are the tills (checkouts).

At this point, the robber beat up the security guard quite quickly, and threw him a little way towards the wall and towards the side. I had my bag from the parcel counter and I was turned to face the stairs. The robber took off up the escalator and the security guard was lying groaning on the floor. I didn't do anything at that point, just walked towards the exit. Now here is where things went sour. A female security guard came down the steps just as the robber was going up the escalator:

Layout2a.jpg

3 = female security guard

She managed to get hold of this robber by his shirt lapels and also managed to drag him all the way down the escalator backwards. It was quite comical how he had to frantically keep his balance but surprisingly he stayed on his feet until they got to the bottom of the stairs and escalator. At this point he reached in his shirt and produced a long knife, which had been filed on the top edge so that it had two sharp edges. He then stabbed the female security guard (it looked like root of neck, but the blade was on the other side of her neck and I couldn't see exactly). She didn't scream, just dropped motionless on the floor in a heap. As far as I was concerned this woman might have sustained a fatal injury. Now in SA at that time, you could shoot somebody dead to prevent or capture them in circumstances where they were perpetrating or had perpetrated a Schedule 1 offense. Without going into details, at that point right there I was entitled to kill him as an armed citizen. But please note two distinct disadvantages. First check the layout at that point:

Layout3.jpg

Second, guess what gun I had...a .25 Baby Browning (this was before I got my car and my 9mmP). So at this point, I wanted the guy, I wanted him out of circulation. He was standing over the woman and several of the tellers were screaming and the manager came out of his office to my left. I dropped my shoulder bag and groceries and drew the .25 and yelled for the robber to stop.
Now this was quite a distance, I don't know how far, but further than I am inclined to target shoot with the little gun. I am not even certain whether he could make out what I had drawn. The office behind the robber was plywood and the door was closed. I didn't know if anyone was in there or not. There were shoppers and tellers on the right, some of them crouching. I didn't know whether he was going to stab this woman again or anyone else, and I also couldn't guarantee I could hit him from where I was. He didn't comply, he didn't put the knife down and I got very edgy about this situation. So here is what I thought: the only 'safe' place I could fire a shot was into the steps of the escalator. This is how I saw it in my mind's eye:

Escalator.jpg

Yes, it constitutes a warning shot which I know very well is hardly ever justified, but I wanted this guy's attention and I wanted him to stop what he was doing and to know that I had the gun. I could't see my way clear to shoot him. So, ladies and gentlemen, I am here to tell you that I did indeed fire the shot, and here is the approximate trajectory:

Layout4.jpg

The bullet was channelled into a gap between two escalator steps and disappeared into the works of the escalator. Subsequent to this incident I was not able to find any fragments of the projectile on the floor. I am asuming that the FMJ is still in that escalator well.
Of course, a shot fired in a store is VERY loud, even if it is just a .25 and people dropped their groceries and tellers slammed their tills closed and there were a few screams. Honestly, what I was expecting the robber to do was lay down the knife and put his hands up. That's how I thought things would work, because that's what I would do if I had a knife and another guy had a gun. Well, that isn't what happened.


The robber made a run for it, up the escalator. He was moving at a good pace.

I gave chase, yelling for him to stop, gun still drawn. I was in quite good shape because I didn't have a car and had to walk or cycle everywhere and I also played squash at least three times a week. But this guy could run and he ran flat out up the escalator and out onto street level, knife still in hand. I chased him down two city blocks and people were scattering on either side of us. I was gaining on him and the more I ran the more annoyed I got. We made a left and ran another city block and then he got to a corner just as a double-decker bus was coming around and he knew he couldn't get around before I closed the distance. So he spun around on the corner, lifted the knife up and prepared to stab me.
At that point I stopped really fast, a few paces from him and aimed the gun at his face. It was quite ridiculous because all I could think of saying to him was 'No.'
Just that one word.

There were people milling around across the road and there were people in the bus behind the robber. I was definitely in the minority, demographically.
Here is what he did: he cocked his head to the side to see if he could make out whether the safety catch was engaged or not. He couldn't make that out. He then looked where my feet were and then looked into my eyes for a few seconds. I think he appreciated at that point that this was a small gun, but I was likely to shoot. I had pressure on the trigger so that the knuckle of my index finger was white. Only after he had considered all these things did he comply.
He put the knife down and another security guard arrived soon after that and took him back to the store.
The female security guard: fortunately the robber had over-stabbed and the blade had gone behind her right shoulder. The force of the blow on the root of her neck is what knocked her senseless. She was okay.
The guy who came off the worst was the male security guard, although I don't doubt they gave that robber a good kicking before the police came for him.

Remember, this happened in South Africa in 1995. The laws at the time are not applicable now and aren't applicable to US laws.
 
Generally, it is foolish to discuss one's own defensive shootings. Even once the statutes of limitations for criminal prosecution and lawsuits have passed, what one has said can be used aginst him if another incident occurs, to try to show mindset or intent.

I have shot a hole into a guy's chest, in a post office parking lot, in a "safe" part of the city, when he approached me with a knife in one hand, chambered for a thrust, and a heavy blunt instrument in the other hand, held high, in the ready-to-clobber position.

I used a classic 125-grain .357 load by Federal. Sternum, heart, and left lung were penetrated. He shuddered, discontinued all progress in my direction, staggered away for a bit, fell, and died. The medical examiner ruled it a homicide, which simply means one human being killed another, not that it was justified or not. The legal system does that, and believe me when I say going before a grand jury was not fun.

Nothing I have said here indicates I enjoyed the experience, or wish to do it again. My criteria for defending myself and others has not changed, and I am no more or less likely do pull the trigger again if presented with similar circumstances. I would rather not have to do it again, of course, but accept that it can happen, especially as I wear a badge and swore an oath. My agency is quite good about backing us when we use force, though there have been isolated notable exceptions.

Ballistic performance? Well, the load I used worked fine at that one point in time, and I still have that load in my 4" .357 sixguns, and some of the time in my .357 snubbies. I feel well-protected with any of several loads in my .40 S&W-chambered SIG duty pistols, or by Hydra-Shoks in my 1911. There is no magic bullet, but shot placement can allow any reasonable load to do amazing things.
 
Not Yet

I have not been there, and have no idea if I ever will be - but I have prepared myself, based on going through the following steps:

1. You Need to Get Your Mind Right. This is where you come to grips and make your peace with the fact that you are carrying the power of life and death. You need to walk through the various scenarios for what will happen after to be prepared for the entire event.
2. You Have to Know Where the Bright Line to Act Is. At what point can you legally stop the threat.
3. As John Bernard Books - John Wayne's character in his last movie The Shootist stated - You Must Be WILLING. There can be NO hesitation as soon as the opportunity/shot is cleared tactically after the Bright Line has been and remains crossed.

Keep in mind that there are no RSVPs to gun/knife/fist fights, and the other side is not interested in fair play, only success as they define it.
 
1911 Turner is right
this is the third time in recent month this question has been been asked in one form or another, IIRC they were locked
 
I stopped reading after 1911 Turner's post, because he's right. There was a guy over at XDTalk that shot two of his 3 attackers not too long ago, killing one and he popped up once in the conversation to say he didn't want to talk about it but was thanks for the support. That's about it. Nobody wants to retrace their steps of a shooting, fatal or not.
 
1911 Turner is right
this is the third time in recent month this question has been been asked in one form or another, IIRC they were locked

That is because more than half the replies in this thread are bull****.

The point of this thread was to help weed out how many people think they are credible, from how many are credible. I think it has succeeded in that respect.
 
way to burn your own thread and reputation on a board in which you're still under 20 posts, and yes I realize this is only my 26th
 
Quite frankly, if you think that if I give a damn about what a bunch of gun geeks who just post to read their own writing and think their own opinions are actually worth something, think of me; You are wrong.
 
The Janitor said:
The point of this thread was to help weed out how many people think they are credible, from how many are credible

Ever hear the old saying "Those who talk about being there and doing that, haven't"? I'd say that is quite applicable here. There are those who will tell you their truthful experiences in an online open forum, but they are in the vast minority.

The Janitor said:
Quite frankly, if you think that if I give a damn about what a bunch of gun geeks who just post to read their own writing and think their own opinions are actually worth something, think of me; You are wrong.

He writes in a thread he started. Irony, anyone?

I think you're done here.
 
The point of this thread was to help weed out how many people think they are credible, from how many are credible. I think it has succeeded in that respect.

Good for you.
:)

But if you'd waited just a little while longer, I'm pretty sure some other posters would have laid it on much thicker than what you've seen so far.

:D
 
Credibility comes from contact real or direct. answering over the Intarweb does not confer credibility
The point of this thread was to help weed out how many people think they are credible, from how many are credible. I think it has succeeded in that respect.

No, it has not succeeded, it just lead to a pile on of comments that is not necessary.
Thank you and Good night!
 
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