Personal true story. RV stop in ILL.

[Autolycus]

Originally posted by BBQJOE:
I opened the door. The officer said it's cold may I come in?

Originally posted by The Lone Haranguer:
think you know now that's not why he wanted to come in.

So the best advice is to not be courteous to the police.

I was told that if you allow the police into your home for purposes other than a search they are given less leeway when it comes to searching for evidence and discovery. I dont think this is true but the cop asked to enter for reasons other than to search the vehicle.

So if a cop comes to my door in the dead of winter and it is a blizzard outside I should make them wait on the porch? And of course shut the door while they are out there so the heat doesnt get out. Gotcha...

 

[Kentak]

It appears you did get a break on the loaded handgun.

From the NRA website on transportation:

FEDERAL LAW ON TRANSPORTATION OF FIREARMS

A provision of federal law serves as a defense to state or local laws which would prohibit the passage of persons with firearms in interstate travel.

Notwithstanding any state or local law, a person shall be entitled to transport a firearm from any place where he may lawfully possess it to any other place where he may lawfully possess such firearm if the firearm is unloaded and in the trunk. In vehicles without a trunk, the unloaded firearm shall be in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console. Necessary stops, like gasoline and rest, seem permissible.

TRANSPORTATION BY MOTOR VEHICLE

In most states, personally-owned firearms may be transported legally if they are unloaded, cased, and locked in the automobile trunk.

The exceptions to this rule apply mainly to interstate transportation of handguns. The myriad and conflicting legal requirements for firearm transportation through the states make caution the key for travelers.

If you travel with a trailer or camper that is hauled by an automobile, it is advisable to transport the firearms unloaded, cased and locked in the automobile trunk. If your vehicle is of the type in which driving and living spaces are not separated, the problem becomes one of access. If the firearm (handgun, rifle or shotgun) is carried on or about the person, or placed in the camper where it is readily accessible to the driver or any passenger, state and local laws regarding concealed carrying of firearms may apply. It is recommended, therefore, that the firearm be transported unloaded, cased, and placed in a locked rear compartment of the camper or mobile home, inaccessible to the driver or passenger.

Generally, a mobile home is considered a home if it is not attached to a towing vehicle, is permanently attached to utilities or placed on blocks or in such a manner that it cannot immediately be started up and used as a vehicle.

I may be wrong, but I believe it has been ruled that a motor home, due to the fact that it is motorized and can leave the scene, is not afforded the same protections as a private residence or--as above--a permanently installed mobile home.

ILLINOIS--A nonresident is permitted to transport a firearm provided it is unloaded, enclosed in a case, and not easily accessible. A nonresident may possess a firearm for licensed hunting, or at a Department of Law Enforcement recognized target shooting range or gun show.

K

 

[Jeff White]

the pistol, while loaded, was described as being locked in a safe. He certainly could have been arrested, but looks to me like he'd have a good case against the officer.

Nope a loaded gun in a vehicle is prohibited in Illinois period. It doesn't matter if it's not accessible, it can't be loaded. He could have had a loaded speedloader in the safe with the revolver and that would have been fine, but loaded is a violation.

The easiest way around the situation was not to let the officer in.

What about the fact that it was an RV? Does that change things as some people claim an RV as their primary residence.

I honestly don't know. I'll ask the states attorney next time I see him what he thinks. Maybe isp2605 knows. I would think that since a person is only allowed to carry at his fixed place of business in Illinois, the legislature clearly intended to prohibit weapons in moving vehicles. You might have that argument if the RV was tied down in a campground.

I was told that if you allow the police into your home for purposes other than a search they are given less leeway when it comes to searching for evidence and discovery.

Who told you that? When an officer enters a dwelling or a vehicle and sees contraband in plain view then he can seize that contraband without a warrant. If he's in a home, the home is secured and the contraband found is used in the affidavit to request a search warrant for the rest of the dwelling. It's the same thing when you are serving a search warrant and you discover something that's not listed on the warrant. You stop and get a warrant to look for more of the things discovered. An example would be you are looking for stolen property and you open the door to the attic room and find an indoor growing operation. The warrant you have doesn't authorize you to look for an indoor growing operation. So if you want any additional evidence you of marijuana production recover besides the indoor growing operation in plain sight to be admissible, you have to get a new warrant. At least that's how we do it in this county.

Jeff

 

[meef]

I opened the door. The officer said it's cold may I come in?

yep.... uh-oh...

At the time I saw no reason not to let him in, I had nothing to hide, so I let him in.

And that was your mistake, as others have pointed out.

What you obviously failed to realize is that by letting him in and out of the cold, you fell under the jurisdiction of the universal doctrine of "No Good Deed Goes Unpunished".

And as we all know, ignorance of the above law is no excuse.

 

[Autolycus]

Jeff White: What I meant to say was that if I let the officer in and there is nothing in plainview the officer does not have the right to open drawers or closets etc. It is not consent to a search. Just what is in plainview.

 

[gunsmith]

if that had happened in NYC

you would be looking at a year in prison, Rikers Island to be exact.
you were lucky to get away with broken cabinets!

It is laws like those that keep me out of occupied states!

I wish we had a National Law or something like the Bill Of Rights that we could rely on to enumerate our rights.

 

[SWMAN]

Most working people just minding their own business traveling interstate don't like being pulled over by the police even if its their own fault, but okay, they violated a minor traffic law. Give'em a ticket or warning. But, then being harrassed by needless nonsense, like a drug search, because they had told the LEO that they had no weapons he should worry about, and he later finds they have a couple firearms on board in an RV is a bit much. Why?

What about the LEO lying to the occupants about being cold and could he come into the RV and start a search and seizure w/o obtaining a warrant? Or is the fact that the LEO was first told there were no weapons aboard that he need worry about, later justification for the search & seizure w/o a warrant?

The LEO lied to the RV people to gain access to the RV w/o a warrant and the gun owner tells the LEO that he shouldn't worry about any weapons. Then, during the course of the search, they break all the cabinet latches in the RV so, only the LEO has a right to be mad? I don't think so! I'd be d___ mad too!

LEOs have a higher standard to maintain than do ordinary citizens. When police don't play by the rules, but use "tricks" to "entrap" then I don't think much of them or their methods.

 

[jeepmor]

Herzlich willkommen in Illinois, Papiere bitte
Welcome to Illinois, papers please

Note to self - Illinois, NY, NJ and California will never be vacation destinations for me. I don't want to contribute to the police states.

 

[Mannix]

Bad moves:

#1 Having the gun loaded knowing you're going to be crossing state borders without knowing the laws of the states you will be traveling through.

#2 Crossing the border into Illinois (with a loaded firearm in your vehicle).

#3 Letting the officer in.

By Illinois law you committed a felony. If the officer had busted you on it, and you subsequently got convicted, right now you would not be able to legally own a firearm.

Count yourself lucky that you got away with some broken latches and a repair order. Next time either stick to states with better laws, or take advantage of the protection provided by federal law by keeping it unloaded and locked in a container separate from ammunition.

 

[Autolycus]

Gunsmith: What is this "Bill of Rights" thing you speak of? In Illinois we just do what the politicans tell us or they will send the police out to teach us how to behave. Didn't you read the thread about Kotowski doing that to the peasants who questioned his voting on some recent gun bills?

But please elaborate more on this "Bill of Rights" thing. Would it give us protections from the government? Would it allow us to keep and bear arms? Sometimes my grandad would tell us about when he was growing up in a country called the United States of America, and people there were allowed to carry guns to protect themselves!!! Its hard to imagine people carrying guns here in the Democratic Peoples Republic of Illinois. Herr Daley, Marshall Blagovich, and Prime Minister Lisa Maddigan would send out the ISP (they are a LE agency here) to stop us as guns can be dangerous in the wrong hands. Well I must go hide, the Party members need me to work 12 hours todays so that I can be taxed to fund their bodyguards salary.

Cheers.

Tecumseh

 

[isp2605]

Quote:
What about the fact that it was an RV? Does that change things as some people claim an RV as their primary residence.

I honestly don't know. I'll ask the states attorney next time I see him what he thinks. Maybe isp2605 knows.

When the RV is moving down the road it's a vehicle, not a residence. We've had several drug cases where the courts have ruled as such. There was also a USSC court saying as much also. I no longer have that cite but they referred to the Carroll case.

 

[Wayne G.]

It's easy to Monday-morning quarterback here. Looking at all the facts as you've laid them out, I can clearly see what action I should take if I found myself in your predicament, thanks to your experience. I feel that I'm better equipped to handle that situation should I ever find myself in it.

Nothing wrong with keeping our executive branch in check and making the system work as it was supposed to by ensuring that proper channels are followed in the execution of searches. Point well received. Thanks for sharing your experience.

 

[jke456]

You got a break...a big one...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You shouldn't have let the officer on board. And you really shouldn't have lied about guns.

This:

Quote:
I opened the cylinder and ejected the bullets and handed it to him still open.

Equals this:
http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs...ode+of+1961.

Quote:
(720 ILCS 5/24‑1) (from Ch. 38, par. 24‑1)
(Text of Section from P.A. 94‑72)
Sec. 24‑1. Unlawful Use of Weapons.
(a) A person commits the offense of unlawful use of weapons when he knowingly:
(1) Sells, manufactures, purchases, possesses or carries any bludgeon, black‑jack, slung‑shot, sand‑club, sand‑bag, metal knuckles, throwing star, or any knife, commonly referred to as a switchblade knife, which has a blade that opens automatically by hand pressure applied to a button, spring or other device in the handle of the knife, or a ballistic knife, which is a device that propels a knifelike blade as a projectile by means of a coil spring, elastic material or compressed gas; or
(2) Carries or possesses with intent to use the same unlawfully against another, a dagger, dirk, billy, dangerous knife, razor, stiletto, broken bottle or other piece of glass, stun gun or taser or any other dangerous or deadly weapon or instrument of like character; or
(3) Carries on or about his person or in any vehicle, a tear gas gun projector or bomb or any object containing noxious liquid gas or substance, other than an object containing a non‑lethal noxious liquid gas or substance designed solely for personal defense carried by a person 18 years of age or older; or
(4) Carries or possesses in any vehicle or concealed
on or about his person except when on his land or in his own abode or fixed place of business any pistol, revolver, stun gun or taser or other firearm, except that this subsection (a) (4) does not apply to or affect transportation of weapons that meet one of the following conditions:
(i) are broken down in a non‑functioning state;or
(ii) are not immediately accessible; or
(iii) are unloaded and enclosed in a case, firearm carrying box, shipping box, or other container by a person who has been issued a currently valid Firearm Owner's Identification Card; or

The provision about possessing a firearm owners identification card doesn't apply to nonresidents.

So instead of sitting in jail on felony UUW charges, you were given your firearms back, a repair order for a broken tail light and sent on your way, and you have the audacity to complain about it?

The Firearm Owners Protection Act under federal law doesn't protect you carrying a loaded gun interstate. You didn't check on the laws regarding carrying and possession of firearms in the states you were traveling in, you operated a vehicle that was not legal (inoperable lights). It seems like the lick is on you and you should be thanking the officers of whatever department you were pulled over by for using discretion and not arresting you on felony charges.

Kind of shoots the heck out of the THR myth that if you are innocently caught with a firearm by an Illinois officer you're on your way to jail doesn't it?

Jeff

Question Jeff????

Would not that the loaded pistol have been considered "(ii) are not immediately accessible; or" considering it was in a locked safe were it not?

Which means by Illinois state law he was transporting legaly.

Now by Illinois DNR laws he was transporting illegally as they require all weapons to becased and unloaded.
But I dont believe you could charge him under DNR law and make it stick for two reasons:
1. A .22 pistol is not considered a hunting weapon
2. He has no intentions of hunting in Illinois only passing through

As far as the SKS without a bolt
"(i) are broken down in a non‑functioning state;or"

No bolt means non funtioning which also means he didn't need to stick gun in pants leg which is not a lawful Illinois case anyway.

Jon

 

[jke456]

Nope a loaded gun in a vehicle is prohibited in Illinois period. It doesn't matter if it's not accessible, it can't be loaded. He could have had a loaded speedloader in the safe with the revolver and that would have been fine, but loaded is a violation.

The easiest way around the situation was not to let the officer in.

Jeff cite Illinois law that says this I have never seen it spelled out as plain as you are saying it is.

jon

 

[S.P.E.C.T.R.E.]

Well there's a lot of meaningful discussion here but the underlying lesson is one I've gleaned from a hundred stories like this: do not let the Police search you, your car, or your house without a warrant. Ever. Period.

 

[Baba Louie]

Note to self: Check tail-lights, turn signals, brake lights, etc before hitting the road.

 

[exar]

Well there's a lot of meaningful discussion here but the underlying lesson is one I've gleaned from a hundred stories like this: do not let the Police search you, your car, or your house without a warrant. Ever. Period.

I wish it was that easy. It can be very difficult to say no when you're being bullied by a few large men with guns. They can find literally any reason to perform a search. Everytime i've seen one of my idiot friends deny a search they just impound the vehicle and tear the carpet and seats out. The car interior is ruined after they're done.

 

[meef]

Everytime i've seen one of my idiot friends deny a search they just impound the vehicle and tear the carpet and seats out. The car interior is ruined after they're done.

Every time...???

You hang with lots of people who get stopped, vehicles impounded and searched?

If this happens a lot (note, I didn't say "alot"), you need to find a new crowd.

Just my opinion.

 

[Kingcreek]

I denied an IL state trooper permission to search my vehicle. While he was clearly irritated, and repeatedly asked me why I would not consent, he was professional and I was allowed to go on my way with no search, impound, ticket, or (further) harrasment.

[I have previously posted about the incident in more detail and won't repeat it here.]

 

[jselvy]

Yeah that's right the illegal search and seizure is the fault of the friends.

Jefferspn

 

[isp2605]

Question Jeff????
Would not that the loaded pistol have been considered "(ii) are not immediately accessible; or" considering it was in a locked safe were it not?
Which means by Illinois state law he was transporting legaly.
Now by Illinois DNR laws he was transporting illegally as they require all weapons to becased and unloaded.
But I dont believe you could charge him under DNR law and make it stick for two reasons:
1. A .22 pistol is not considered a hunting weapon
2. He has no intentions of hunting in Illinois only passing through

Here's where laymen who have no training in the law get into trouble.
Doesn't matter that he wasn't hunting for the Wildlife Code to apply. The IL statutes are a hodge-podge of laws and just because a law isn't listed under a certain section doesn't mean it doesn't apply. That's just the section where the legislature decided to include it. The reason for that could be many. Could be the sponsor was on that particular committee. One doesn't have to be hunting or with a hunting weapon for the Wildlife code to apply.
Jeff gave 100% accurate info. It wasn't "Jeff's opinion", he cited the statutes and case law. He's trying to keep you people out of trouble in IL by providing accurate info. Best advice is to heed what he has to say - unless of course a person enjoys the thought of spending at least 1 night in jail awaiting to see a judge.

 

[jselvy]

Guys,
Its real simple. It's Us vs.Them. Anyone who tells you otherwise is either a cop or a collaborator. The Police in this country have been effective lobbying for special privileges for themselves (national carry, CCW for Corrections Officers in IL, etc.) and waivers of rights for the rest of us (Reasonable suspicion vs. 4th amendment warrants, No knock Searches, No warrant wiretaps, etc.). You made the mistake of treating the cop like a human being and it came back and bit you. Not really surprising. We are treated as criminals long before we actually get what is laughingly called due process.
Before you jump down my throat, logically point out where I am wrong. Are LEO's that are off duty and/or out of jurisdiction treat exactly the same as any other citizen, or do they get "professional courtesies" and lighter sentencing if and when they are caught breaking the law.

Jefferson

 

[Kingcreek]

Guys,
Its real simple. It's Us vs. Them

That seems a little extreme.
I'm not a cop or a "collaborator" but the LEOs that I know are regular folks with a tough job and not a lot of pay. Not really fair to lump them all together as JBTs.

 

[jselvy]

Mr. Kingcreek,

Do they stand up and speak out against the growing police powers and erosion of our basic rights? If so, good on them and I withdraw the statement as it applies to them. If not then they are part and parcel of the problem. They are just a lighter version.
Do you stand up to them against the growing police powers and erosion of our basic rights? If so then you are not a collaborator. If not then you are offering aid and comfort to the enemies of the Constitution and that is collaboration by definition.
It really is that simple.

Jefferson

 

[geekWithA.45]

RVs and the 4th Amendment

IIRC, there where a couple of cases that clarified RVs a to whether they need to be treated as homes or as vehicles.

The upshot of the cases isn't surprising.

When it's on the road, it's treated as a vehicle.

When it's parked in such a way suggesting it's at a quasi permanent resting place, it's treated as a home.

When it's ambiguous, the courts take into account things like whether the electric and sewer is hooked up to the external world, etc.

The rules about areas accessible to the driver still apply, but safety searches (which I think fall under the Terry frisk doctrine) involving opening closets and so forth are out.

RVs are not magical search proof smuggling vehicles.