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Petals thru bone

Discussion in 'Handguns: General Discussion' started by 2zulu1, Aug 2, 2011.

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  1. 481

    481 Member

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    Using the equations provided here ( http://www.wbdg.org/ccb/DOD/UFC/ufc_4_023_07.pdf ) for determining the ballistic limit (V50) and residual velocity (Vr) against steel targets and the data provided above, it is possible to estimate the residual velocity of the exiting 10mm 180 gr. Gold Dot and get a good idea of its potential for penetration in soft tissue.

    Using two separate thicknesses of 1.5mm CRS panel having a BHN of ~149, the residual velocity of the Speer 10mm 180 gr. Gold Dot would be 820.931 feet per second assuming (immediate) expansion to full recovered diameter (0.582") upon impact with the first of the two 1.5mm CRS panels.

    Penetration depth and permanent wound cavity mass may then be predicted using the MacPherson model-

    Speer 10mm 180 gr. Gold Dot JHP v. two 1.5mm CRS panels

    Recovered Projectile Data:
    Recovered Diameter: 0.582" (1.455x caliber))
    Retained Mass: 177.1 gr.
    Impact Velocity: 1267 fps (Vr: 820.931 fps)

    Predicted Performance:
    Cavitation Regime Boundary (Vc) = 406.631 fps
    Permanent Wound Cavity Mass (Mw) = 45.467 grams (1.604 ounces)
    Penetration Depth (Xcm) = 36.143 cm (14.230 inches)

    I am not sure that there is an equation/algorithm that would permit an estimate/prediction of residual ballistic velocity through bone (much less dried up cow bone) and even if we had such an animal, I'd find it suspect under such circumstances.


    Thanks for the test, Bob.

    :)
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2011
  2. Creature

    Creature Member

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    Live bone is far different than old and dried bone.
     
  3. 2zulu1

    2zulu1 Member

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    ~14 inches of penetration after passing through 2 steel barriers is impressive. :D

    Thank you for running the equations. :)

    Bob
     
  4. 481

    481 Member

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    You are welcome.

    The 10mm is good for getting through lots of "stuff" when lots of "stuff" gets in the way. :evil:
     
  5. Dr.Rob

    Dr.Rob Moderator Staff Member

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    Wet bone or dry bone, shooting stuff is FUN. I'm really enjoying this thread.

    The information is well presented and the photography is VERY good.
     
  6. 481

    481 Member

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    Glad you're enjoying it. :)

    When it comes to breath-taking photography, Bob's got it all over me with those "Big Sky" backgrounds. I've got.....shrubbery. :scrutiny:
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2011
  7. 2zulu1

    2zulu1 Member

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    Glad you are enjoying the thread, hopefully we'll be able to share more tests in the future. May have to saddle a horse and look for more bones. :)

    Bob
     
  8. orionengnr

    orionengnr Member

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    I am very pleased to see the results of the Ranger 127+p+ and Ranger 230+p tests, since those are the rounds that I have been carrying in my Kahr PM9 and my various 1911s for several years now.

    I have been thinking of moving to the HST, but at this point, I may delay that move for a while. Maybe a good while. :)
     
  9. pisc1024

    pisc1024 Member

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    Hey guys, cool tests... Where have I seen them before???? Hmm...:neener:
     
  10. Cop Bob

    Cop Bob Member

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    Thank you for running these tests and posting your results...Very enjoyable read..

    As for the comments about dry bone.. True enough.. can be overcome with a good long soaking, or going by the butcher shop and picking up some fresh.. It will not alter the results by much.. just in the interests of accuracy and fairness..

    Many years ago, we ran very similar tests after our Planning and Research Division read the FBI reports on the effectiveness of handgun ammunition. They came to the range, asked our opinion, and handed over some Federal Grant money and asked us if we could replicate and confirm.. was a fun time on the government dime...

    Good work... I KNOW you want to run more with different calibers and bullet options.. Keep us posted...
     
  11. 2zulu1

    2zulu1 Member

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    .38 Super

    It was Texas Ranger Frank Hamer who carried the .38 Super at the demise of Bonnie and Clyde and it was in his hand as the smoke cleared.

    http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/history/hamer_guns.htm

    So, reading the above post, let's enter another bone shattering caliber and see what it's capable of.

    Bullet selection, 124gr XTPs have an upper velocity limitation of high 1300s to low 1400s, this .355cal XTP came apart at 1436fps;

    [​IMG]

    An advantage of the .356cal Super is the ability to load it with .357 mag velocity bullets. Loading with a neutral powder, PMAX is lower than degressive handgun powders, yet the pressure area under the curve is the same between the two types of powders.

    This 125gr XTP had an MV of 1491fps (chamber pressure under 34,000psi) and it proved to be a very tough bullet.

    [​IMG]

    Very impressive baseline;

    .38 Super 125 gr. XTP JHPImpact velocity: 1491 fps (617fpe)
    Average recovered diameter: 0.546" (1.53x cal)

    Vcav = 419.069 fps
    Mw = 42.009 grams (1.482 ounces)
    Xcm = 39.030 cm (15.366 inches)

    What is this bullet capable of?

    [​IMG]

    A lot!

    [​IMG]

    True .357mag performance from a 1911 combined with faster split times than a G17. :D

    Bob
     
  12. 481

    481 Member

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    Since many are constrained by "tight finances" these days, I try to shoot the "economy brand" JHPs whenever I get a chance since they are better than most people think. Often, they perform as well, and in some cases better, than the more recent (and more expensive) JHP designs.

    Regardless of caliber, I normally prefer "heavy-for-caliber" ammunition, but this stuff acquitted itself rather nicely in this test.



    [​IMG]



    [​IMG]



    [​IMG]



    Here is the MacPherson predictive analysis for this test:

    WinchesterUSA 9mm 115 gr. JHP (USA9JHP) v. four layers of 2 ounce cotton fabric

    Recovered Projectile Data:
    Average Recovered Diameter: 0.551 inch (1.555x caliber)
    Retained Mass: 115 grains
    Impact Velocity: 1172 feet per second

    Predicted Performance:
    Cavitation Regime Boundary (Vc) = 413.363 feet per second
    Permanent Wound Cavity Mass (Mw) = 35.909 grams (1.267 ounces)
    Penetration Depth (Xcm) = 32.451 centimeters (12.776 inches)


    :)
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2011
  13. Dr.Rob

    Dr.Rob Moderator Staff Member

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    Good to see old 'white box' stood up to the test.

    That 38 super load was seriously impressive too.
     
  14. 481

    481 Member

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    Rob,


    The performance of the WinnyUSA stuff is always a pleasant surprise for me.

    Much of it used to be the old SuperX ammunition line and was used by LE through the 1990s (some places like Cinci PD are still fielding this stuff even though it is under the WWB label) until the need for better terminal performance was answered by the ammo manufacturers.

    I'll have a test for the WinUSA 9mm 147 gr. JHP posted pretty soon.

    As for the .38Super stuff, Bob just likes to "hotrod" whenever he can find an excuse to do so. It doesn't take much, mind you... :D
     
  15. Dr.Rob

    Dr.Rob Moderator Staff Member

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    I still enjoy WW Silvertips in my 9mm. 115 gr rounds run hot in my BHP clone.
     
  16. FIVETWOSEVEN

    FIVETWOSEVEN Member

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    How would the Remington bulk JHP in .40 hold up?
     
  17. Ak.Hiker

    Ak.Hiker Member

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    Dried heavy bones are much harder on a bullet than fresh wet bones. They remind me of porcelin. I have never seen a JHP SD type bullet hold together when hitting dried out moose bones. Some of the hunting type bullets like the Nosler Partition Gold and the heavier Barnes solid copper bullets will hold up though. Good solid hard cast LBT type bullets and heavy JSP bullets like the Sierra 300 grain 45 and 44 bullets will bust right through and keep on going. So will good old 45 ACP 230 grain hardball and a good 200 grain FMJ like the thick jacketed Hornady in 10mm. I tested out a variety of bullets over the last week shooting through a solid chunk of tree root with a soft backstop to catch the bullets. In 10mm the 175 grain Silvertip and 200 grain factory XTP went through and deformed badly and stopped at the backstop. Double Tap 200 grain Montana Gold FMJ's went right through and deep enough into the backstop that I could not get them out. In 45 acp the 230 grain Hornady TAP +P went through the root and stopped at the backstop. This bullet really held together and expanded beautifully. 230 grain DT hardball loaded with the Speer TMJ bullet went through and deep into the backstop without a scratch on the bullet. No wonder hardball goes through bones so well. A tough bullet a moderate velocity can be quite impressive. Winchester 240 grain White Box 44 Magnum bullets went through the root and expanded like in a textbook with 100% weight retention. The penetration was about the same as the 45 acp TAP +P load with a little less expansion. A factory 300 grain 44 Magnum XTP went right through and deep into the backstop. The bullet was pretty roughed up but it did keep most of its weight. The Double Tap 255 grain Keith heavy loaded 45 Colt went through both the root and the backstop. To stop this one I had to put a tougher backstop behind the root. The recovered hardcast bullet deformed a bit but kept most of its weight. A heavy handloaded 158 grain Speer Unicore JSP in 357 Magnum was a real suprise. It went right through the root and into the backstop with a perfect mushroom and 100% weight retention. The Unicore expands like a tougher version of the Gold Dot JHP. These are very good bullets for the money. I did not waste my time testing out heavier hardcast 44 Magnum and 45 Colt loads as I already know it would take more backstop than this to stop the heavy weights. When I was a teen my Dad got me a 45 acp. I carried it for years on the trails. It was mostly loaded with 230 hardball. Not a bad load afterall.
     
  18. 2zulu1

    2zulu1 Member

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    Looks like the Win 115gr JHP you tested did much better than one of the RA9115HP+ that I tested;

    [​IMG]

    Bob
     
  19. 2zulu1

    2zulu1 Member

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    Thank you for sharing your real world experiences. Hard cast bullets make for great game getters as you posted. In the Nov/Dec 2009 edition of American Handgunner John Taffin wrote about taking two 500+ pound feral hogs cleanly and quickly with a .44 Special/Keith bullet (250-260grs) at 950fps.

    A scandium Smith .44 Special/WFN is my BUG while I'm working out back on the property when mountain lions come down from the nearby wilderness areas. One time I was in heavy mesquite and a lion took down a javelina about 30 yards away w/o me hearing/seeing it happen. It was a fresh kill with blood pooling on top of the ground, the blood didn't have the time to soak into the dirt.

    Here's an example of what a hard cast bullet is capable of, entrance hole of a .357mag/180gr WFNGC;

    [​IMG]

    Exit hole on opposite end of the cow leg bone;

    [​IMG]

    Bob
     
  20. Odd Job

    Odd Job Member

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    Nice thread!

    One comemnt though: you get different types of bone, and different mineralisation along different lengths of the same bone.
    The flat bones such as the scapula and skull don't fracture as dramatically as the cylindrical cortical bone such as femur and tibia.
    With regards to wet vs dry, the wet will offer more resistance to perforation because of the presence of blood, marrow and periosteum. Other effects may be noticeable, for example if you shoot a wet head vs dry skull, you may find pressure-related fractures of the fine bones around the orbits, which doesn't happen when shooting dry skull.

    Those fracture patterns of the bones you have shot, are not much different from the fracture patterns I have seen on real live GSW patients. Holes in the scapulae and iliac blades tend to be punched out. In bone epiphyses where you have more cancellous bone than cortical, you often see little fragmentation but in the shaft of a long bone it shatters into many fragments.

    You can work out direction of fire through long bones on the patient's X-rays provided the two wounds have been marked with a paperclip or other radio-opaque marker prior to X-ray. The exit side often has a buttlerfly fragment with the apex of the trapezium pointing towards the entrance wound.
     
  21. 481

    481 Member

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    Odd Job,

    Thanks.

    So scapulae and skull bone tissue are both cancellous?

    The reason I ask is that if we are shooting through scapulae and it is roughly analogous to skull in that aspect, then we are also seeing a bit of what can be expected with a head shot as well given the same property? :confused:

    Am I also correct in assuming that ribs/sternum/vertebrae (Cervical thru Lumbar) are primarily cortical and more likely to shatter like a femur?

    Now that I look at Bob's photos with the knowledge you've imparted above, I see how it is possible to ascertain the entry and exit through a bone esp. like a scapula.

    Thanks for the contribution. I sure hope you'll stick around as this effort progresses as I'd appreciate your input whenever you have something to offer. :cool:

    :)
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2011
  22. 481

    481 Member

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    If you are interested in saving a few bucks, I have it on good authority from two Winchester personnel that the 115 gr. and 147 gr. JHPs used in the WinchesterUSA loads are the same bullets used in the Silvertip ammo- minus the shiny silver plating on their exteriors.
     
  23. 481

    481 Member

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    Considering that there is a significant difference in impact velocity, I am not so sure.

    Betcha if we over-drove the WinchesterUSA 9mm 115 gr. JHP to the same speed as that Winchester RA9115HP+, we'd get the same result as you did and I am willing to bet that the two bullets are actually one in the same design.
     
  24. Odd Job

    Odd Job Member

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    It isn't as simple as that.
    All bone has a cortex, and therefore some of it will be cortical. In some areas of the same bone, the cortex will be thicker than others. It is all about the ratio of cortical to cancellous that detemines whether you are likely to have a shattered vs a punched bone.

    With real patients it is very difficult to work out trajectories through flat bones based on the fractures themselves, because most of the time all you see is a hole or a luceny on X-ray. You don't get to see the bevelling as in the dry bones.
    Of course, if pieces of bone from the scapula or pieces of metal from the projectile extend away from the scapula then you can have a reasonable assertion that the fragments point to the exit.

    Some variables to consider:

    1) Post shooting handling of the person by emergency crews may involve reduction or worsening of fractures
    2) In real living tissues you have a perisosteum around the bone (think of it like a thin sheath of sausage skin). That has to play a role in the limitation of the displacement of some fragments
    3) Projectiles travelling parallel to flat bones can produce unusual fractures
     
  25. 481

    481 Member

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    Thank you, I appreciate your time. :)

    OK, I think I have it now. So the proportion of cancellous or cortical tissue determines how the bone is generally classified?

    While I realize that periostic membrane is present around many bones, I never considered it "tensile" enough to retain high energy projectile fragments, but the perspective you offer (arguably much more educated than mine) in this area is something that I will not fail to consider when viewing future tests.

    Also, when you see luceny on an Xray, is that indicative of more of a complete fracture held in place by the surrounding structure(s)/tissues or more likely a fissure that might be a partial/incomplete fracture that hasn't progressed fully through the bone? Are these common at the impact site of a projectile perforation through bone (radially extending from the perforation)?

    I am just trying to get an idea of the fracture mechanics involved here so that when I see test results I have at least a simple, if not improved, understanding of what I am seeing.

    As you might have guessed by my questions, I find this topic very interesting. :cool:
     
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