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Petals thru bone

Discussion in 'Handguns: General Discussion' started by 2zulu1, Aug 2, 2011.

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  1. 481

    481 Member

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    Dan,

    Surprsingly decent stuff for "economy" ammo, I keep a fair amount (700-800 rounds) of it on hand as an "emergency stash" and occasionally load and carry it. Its expansion to nearly 3/4" is reassuring to say the least. :D
     
  2. 2zulu1

    2zulu1 Member

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    .44mag Lasercast 240gr RNFP

    I went through some of my old tests looking for a hardcast bullet that was deformed.

    This was a very light Unique powder load, only 1281fps/874fpe from a M629/6.5". Lasercast data shows a Brinell Hardness of 24 for their line of hardcast bullits. FWIW, Lasercast #1 has load data pushing this bullet into the 1500s.

    [​IMG]

    Original meplat diameter was roughly 0.280", captured bullet surpisingly 'expanded' to 0.491" x 0.504", 0.429" shank.

    Recoverd weight 230.8grs,
    Random bullet weight 236.2grs (next to tested bullet)

    Backstop was caliche clay, slick as ice when wet and hard as concrete when dry. :)

    Bob
     
  3. 481

    481 Member

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    That's a pretty tough bullet to retain all that mass even after crashing into sunbaked caliche at close to 1300 fps and I'd bet that it wouldn't suffer as much damage if fired through dried bone.
     
  4. 2zulu1

    2zulu1 Member

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    I've pretty much recovered from a prolonged illness and it's time to resurrect this thread if there's enough interest.

    I'm planning to baseline two more 357 mag factory loads; Remington's 125gr JSP and Federals 158gr JSP. It's expected that the JSPs will penetrate deeper than their JHP counterparts because they will expand less, but to what extent, I don't know.

    We'll also learn how tough the 357/140gr XTP is against our bleached out range cow bones. :)
     
  5. Ak.Hiker

    Ak.Hiker Member

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    Glad to see you are feeling better. Should be an interesting test. In my testing of 357 JSP loads for penetration I did find that through moose leg bones the 158 JSP out did any JHP that I tested in service calibers. The load tested was a Sierra handload to factory specs. Should be real close to the Federal. For an even tougher 158 grain JSP check out the Speer Unicore. Less exposed lead and Unicore construction make for a pretty tough bullet at handgun velocity. I have never tested the Remington 125 JSP but I hear it is loaded to match the velocity of the 125 JHP SD load. Should be pretty snappy.
     
  6. 2zulu1

    2zulu1 Member

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    Thanks for the heads up. Plan is to chronograph in the morning and then test, I also have some 170gr Gold Dots that can be tested. I'll take your lead on the 158gr JSP and find a thicker bone to try and bust up. :)
     
  7. 2zulu1

    2zulu1 Member

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    Remington 125gr JSP #L357M12

    Remington advertises their JSP ammunition as having deep penetration with expansion, "perfect for hunting and practice".

    Well, it certainly penetrates, but I'm unable to report on its expansion.

    This morning's setup had six one gallon bottles filled with water and two one gallon bottles that had large chunks of ice floating on about 1" of water. Muzzle was about 6' from the first bottle which totally split open upon impact, it then penetrated all six water bottles and the two 'ice' bottles before exiting. The 'ice' chunks were reduced to ice slivers, but I believe the chunks were soft ice rather than deep freeze hard ice.

    The plan was to capture the bullet, measure its expansion and then chronograph from 4" & 6" barrels, in addition, compare the JHP MVs with the SJHP MVs.

    This morning's test used a M686+/6" and based upon the SJHP MV chronograph data, impact velocity was in the 1626fps range.

    I'm surprised at what the factory 125gr JSP did and would have expected this from the 158gr JSP, total works out to 33" of water and 11" of ice. Bullet remained intact because no fragments or the bullet's casing were found in the trough.
     
  8. 481

    481 Member

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    Sounds like the JSP didn't expand.

    This link, provided earlier by JTQ (thanks again for the link :) )...

    http://www.gsgroup.co.za/articlepvdw.html

    ...presents an excellent easy to understand description of why bullets with meplats produce greater penetration than their round-nose bretheren. It is a definte "must read" IMHO.

    Supercavitation eliminates all viscous drag components (save for a very small amount at the stagnation point) leaving only inertial drag components (these are governed by the material's strength properties) to slow and eventually stop the flat nose bullet.

    If the .357 125 gr. JSP @ ~1600+ fps failed to expand, its flat frontal surface will act like a meplat and produce cavitation (but only at velocities in excess of 500 fps).

    In such a case, MacPherson's penetration model indicates that it would've been capable of producing at least 38.5 inches of calibrated ordnance gelatin penetration which means that (using the penetration conversion factor ~2.5x for converting gelatin to water penetration) you would need at least 95-100 inches (about eight and a half feet) of water column to bring it to a halt.

    Maybe it is time to start shooting into stock tanks...:evil:
     
  9. 481

    481 Member

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    Since it uses the exact same projectile as the Winchester RA9B, this is one of my favorite SD/CCW loads for the Glock 17...


    [​IMG]



    [​IMG]


    Here is the MacPherson predictive analysis for this test:

    Winchester 9mm 147 gr. PDX1 JHP v. four layers of 2 ounce cotton fabric

    Recovered Projectile Data:
    Average Recovered Diameter: 0.578 ± 0.0005 inch (1.633x caliber)
    Retained Mass: 146.9 grains
    Impact Velocity: 1006 feet per second

    Predicted Performance:
    Cavitation Regime Boundary (Vc) = 411.429 feet per second
    Permanent Wound Cavity Mass (Mw) = 41.915 grams (1.479 ounces)
    Penetration Depth (Xcm) = 34.396 cm (13.542 inches)


    :)
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2012
  10. 2zulu1

    2zulu1 Member

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    Nice test with decent numbers, now we can go ahead with the RA9B bone test once I pass the Android/Photobucket test plus the post pic test. Must be time for finals. :)

    Have you run split times with this ammunition G17 vs P226?
     
  11. 2zulu1

    2zulu1 Member

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    I find the cavitation quote interesting and it helps explain why WFNs penetrate deeply and can cause large crush cavities in the process. Another benefit is the bullet's capability to track straight, not change direction or tumble. As we witnessed with the 10mm/200gr WFNGC, it went through a lot of bone when a lot of bone got in the way.

    The 357 mag/180gr WFNGC also performed very well through a large cow leg bone, perhaps its time to push the 125/158gr JSP designs and learn what they are capable of.
     
  12. 481

    481 Member

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    No, not yet. Once we get warmer temps here I will.

    Looking forward to the bone test with the RA9B- should be very interesting.

    When it comes to the new smart phones, I give up. I am still looking for the wind-up crank that makes my computer run. :scrutiny:
     
  13. 2zulu1

    2zulu1 Member

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    How did the 158gr JSP compare with the 10mm/200gr XTP?

    Hoping 481 will come along and ballpark 158gr JSP/1240fps soft tissue penetration, I'm guesstimating over 3.5' and less than 4'. :)

    Since we've tested a few service caliber offerings, here's a 10 year old article written by Mas Ayoob and his bullets for caliber picks.

    http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_3_48/ai_82551648/pg_2/?tag=content;col1

    Since we're testing 9mm and 357mag on this page, the link is to the article's corresponding page.

    FWIW, while breaking in a new 686P/4" over the weekend, I shot a duplicate 125gr factory load using 17.7grs/2400; not only was it loud, but I could see a muzzle flash under an afternoon Arizona sun. Also, I witnessed compressed air from the muzzle blast out to about 18", will try and figure out how to video this phenomenon. Night testing with this load gave off a very large orange colored flash under a bright full moon and it caused a neighbor who lives a 1/4 mile away to phone and ask what I was shooting?

    Gotta love the mag.
     
  14. 481

    481 Member

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    If that 158 gr. JSP doesn't expand, it'll go 38-40 inches in soft tissue.

    Depending upon degree of expansion (if it expands), not so much. :D

    Are we about to see a test? :cool:
     
  15. heeler

    heeler Member

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    Great tests guys.
    It would be nice to see the results of those bullets after they are fired out of the more compact carry 9mm's,40's,etc. that are all the rage in the ccw world.
    Would love to see how they would expand out of my Kahr PM9.
     
  16. 2zulu1

    2zulu1 Member

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    You bring up some great points for testing compact pistols, currently the only 9s I own are a G17 and Browning Hi-Power. IIRC, we've tested the 135gr Gold Dot thru 3"/M64, but not the Ranger bonded or 158gr SWCHP. 200gr XTPs through a 2.5"/44spcl failed to expand and 165gr Gold Dots through a 4" Steyr performed very well. In 45auto all I have are 1911 Governments and a M25-2/6.5" and neither model is capable of velocities that can expand Sierra's 240gr JHC.

    I can ask around, but living in a rather remote rural area there aren't many compact 9s, but there may be an XDC that can be used for testing. :)

    FWIW, as much as I've carried the 1911/38 Super at my place, a M686P/4" has become my daily carry here and in town.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2012
  17. Ak.Hiker

    Ak.Hiker Member

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    Tested out some top end 357 Magnum loads for penetration out of my 3 1/16 inch SP 101. Solid 6 inch spruce log. The temp was about 10 degrees. The Speer 158 grain JSP loaded just below max hit hard and did not penetrate. This log was tough enough to stop a 255 grain Double Tap Keith 45 Colt load so this did not suprise me. The Keith 45 Colt load did make it to the back of the log and stopped in the back almost exiting. I then ran a 180 grain Grizzly cast load out of the little 357 and it easily cleared making a nice sized exit. Next up was a Buffalo Bore 180 grain hard cast. This load went right on through as well. It is a little bit hotter than the Grizzly and the bullet has a smaller meplate so I figured it would fully penetrate. Next up was some full power handloads with the Sierra 180 grain full profile bullet. These went right on through as well.
     
  18. Ak.Hiker

    Ak.Hiker Member

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    How did the 158gr JSP compare with the 10mm/200gr XTP?
    The 158 grain JSP in 357 magnum cut a straight hole through the bone. With out much expansion. The XTP's expanded so they had less penetration. I tried the 230 grain 45 ACP +P as well with similar results. I really like the XTP bullets and sure would not opt not to carry them based on my simple back woods testing. Of course we know if used on game the results would be different. However I sure was impressed with the 357 Magnum 158 grain JSP's ability to track straight when hitting bone.
     
  19. 2zulu1

    2zulu1 Member

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    XTPs are an excellent design as we've seen with the 125gr exploding a cow leg bone after penetrating a 14 ply semi truck tire.

    Last week was hard on a pair of new handguns that I had planned on using for some new tests. The less than a week old M686P/4" had soft primer strikes after about 300 rounds. More seriously was a cracked SIG P220 SAO frame (600-700 round count) that ended up with a KB, stung the trigger finger a bit and left zebra stripe powder residue on my hands.

    Anyway, Smith will take care of the 686 w/o any issues and the talk with Sig Sauer will be interesting. :)
     
  20. 2zulu1

    2zulu1 Member

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    How much distance does it take for an HST to expand?

    In this front door encounter, not very much. Close distance here while going outside with the German Shepherd, heard a rattler and the GS followed the inside command and in doing so slid one of porch welcome mats over the rattler. Once the GS was inside, I slid the mat back and noticed the rattler was moving into a strike position.

    Unable to get a clear vision of its head, I focused on the front part of its slithery movements as I drew my Hi Power and moved closer for the shot.

    Zoomed in afterwards from a distance of about 6ft to take this photo;

    [​IMG]

    Most of my rattler head shots in the past have been done with 1911s in 38 Super, but the Hi Power felt great in my hand and it also points very well.
    ,,,
    As this sequence of photos show, rattlers can continue to writhe about, even headless;

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    With two spine hits, albeit very small, it appears the 124gr HST was able to expand within the rattlers gut.

    [​IMG]
     
  21. 2zulu1

    2zulu1 Member

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    230gr Hydra-shok

    Used up my last Hydra-shok against a cow rib;

    [​IMG]

    I know there are LEAs that have carried the HS designed bullet and have been pleased with its field performance. The only real world experience I know about the 230gr Hydra-shok occurred some years ago when an armed robbery suspect was shot in the shoulder and the bullet failed to expand during a failed robbery attempt. The suspect was subsequently extradited to Texas to face homicide charges.

    In this bone test the Hydra-shok riveted to ~0.452", retained its mass and it would have performed/resulted as a through and through wound.


    [​IMG]

    Compared to other designs we've tested against bone, there's not much to write about here.
     
  22. Scipio Africanus

    Scipio Africanus Member

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    Again, thank you for this thread. This is really fantastic info and fun reading!
     
  23. popper

    popper Member

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    So basically, any hard cast lead (> 12 BHN) would be thru & thru? The 2x4s I've accidentally hit just drilled through.
     
  24. Dr.Rob

    Dr.Rob Moderator Staff Member

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    Is that a Mojave rattler? Never seen one so green.
     
  25. 2zulu1

    2zulu1 Member

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    WFNs typically penetrate deeply, one example is the terminal performance of the 44 Special loaded with 250gr-260gr WFNs/Keith bullet on large hogs. Several years ago there was an article in "American Hand gunner" relating to a hog hunt that resulted in clean kills on two 500lb hogs using this combination.

    I doubt the 230gr HS would have performed the same as the above 44 Special did on hogs, but it should be easy enough to calculate its penetration and that of Buffalo Bore's 255gr WFN in 45 auto.
     
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