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Petals thru bone

Discussion in 'Handguns: General Discussion' started by 2zulu1, Aug 2, 2011.

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  1. Malamute

    Malamute Member

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    Very interesting thread! I've enjoyed reading it.

    One of the regulars on the leverguns forum has tested various rifle rounds. He's a guide in Texas, and has compiled a list of cartridges and their performance on game. He's used fresh dead cows also, for penetration testing. Interestingly, when he used fresh dead cows (some stacked in drums) to catch bullets, he found that the bullets tended to penetrate about double what they did in live animals. I found that interesting.

    Have you shot any bones with 22's? I've found that range bones can be holed reliably with 22 fired from rifles. I didn't test expansion, was just shooting the bones, and was surprised that they always shot through, even on the knob ends.

    There are some fairly fresh deer and elk bones out in the hills where I dog walk. I'll see if there's some leg bones. I'll ask around and see if anyone has fresh bones also. Will try the saran wrapped bones and see what happens, or, I may be able to get the whole lower leg, skin still intact if that would be better?
     
  2. 2zulu1

    2zulu1 Member

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    44mag 200gr XTP Cow leg bone test

    This morning's test went well, bullet was captured in #4 bottle. High Performance packing tape, four layers, from 3M was wrapped around the leg bone. Small fragments of bone along with a piece of tape were found in what remained of #1 bottle.

    The setup;

    [​IMG]

    Exit hole and the blown open #1 bottle;

    [​IMG]

    Close-up entrance hole, 0.472"x0.650";

    [​IMG]

    Exit hole looking toward entrance hole, 0.820"x1.013";

    [​IMG]

    Length of recovered bullet was 0.399", tear in the XTP jacket casing is also visible;

    [​IMG]

    I anticipated that the bullet petals would fold inward upon impact, but it appears that didn't happen. This was a double impact bone penetration, bone-airspace-bone-water bottle.

    For the bone to balance in the trough, it was placed at a compound angle and I expect that was the reason for the elongated entrance/exit holes.

    MV 1471fps
    Recovered weight - 151.6 grains
    Expansion - 0.588"
    Length - 0.399"

    Given the toughness of the bone, test went well, even with the jacket separation.

    Going back to the baseline test, the XTP 'used' up about half of its 900 ft/lbs of energy in the first 3" of penetration, more than most of the service caliber ammunition offerings. :)
     
  3. 2zulu1

    2zulu1 Member

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    Haven't tried 22, but that's interesting performance results against bone. In a "knobby" test of a 10mm/200XTP/1200s, pulverized the bone and only a few small bullet fragments were found.

    These large dried out cow bones are tough on JHPs.

    Looking forward to seeing your tests. :)
     
  4. Odd Job

    Odd Job Member

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    Thanks, that's very interesting, doesn't have the same fracture pattern as I would expect in a "wet" bone. Could be one anomaly though, would need a whole lot of untouched bones to be shot, to confirm.
     
  5. 481

    481 Member

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    2z1,

    A quick note before I offer up the Schwartz bullet penetration model analysis for this test. Because it is not possible to reliably predict/estimate the velocity lost by the test bullet as it passed through the bone, an impact velocity is impossible to detemine. Rather than "fudge" a number, I've simply used the muzzle velocity provided by 2z1, so please bear this in mind when looking at the analysis of the test.

    Pushed to lay a number on it, I'd "guesstimate" the loss (given the bullet's behavior in the water after passing through the bone) as being no less than about 75 fps -100 fps- but even with that reduction in speed, penetration decreases by only about 2/3rds of an inch and a couple of grams of crushed gelatin/soft tissue. Not worth worrying about, IMHO.

    All that aside, here is the Schwartz bullet penetration model analysis for this test:

    Hornady .44 Magnum 200 gr. XTP v. dry bone (4" S&W M29)

    Recovered Projectile Data:

    Average Recovered Diameter: 0.588 inch
    Retained Mass: 151.6 grains
    Impact Velocity: 1471 feet per second

    Predicted Terminal Performance:

    Penetration Depth (S) = 43.272 cm (17.036 inches)
    Permanent Wound Cavity Mass (MPC) = 64.582 grams (2.278 ounces)




    It is interesting that you mention this- it is a very neat insight.

    The Schwartz bullet penetration model's equation for calculating the "residual velocity" of a bullet (page 19 of "Quantitative Ammunition Selection") indicates that the bullet in the baseline test would've expended one half of its kinetic energy (960.77 fpe) by the time that it reached a penetration depth of 2.795 inches in gelatin/soft tissue- that's the KE possessed by a .40S&W 165 gr. JHP (1150 fps) at the muzzle. :what:

    Of course, what it really important is what the bullet does with that KE.

    After seeing Odd Job's comment, I am thinking that-

    1) if Malamute can hustle up some fresh bone, we'll probably see the sort of fracture pattern that Odd Job is looking for

    2) dried up bone may not be as good a "stand in" as we'd hoped :(

    3) might be time to get a fresh bovine shoulder blade

    Thanks for the test, 2z1.

    :)
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2012
  6. 2zulu1

    2zulu1 Member

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    ^^^^^^^^ Great post and thank you for running the numbers.

    This test reminded me of the 357mag 158gr JHP tests, except the 158gr isn't clocking ~upper 1400s.

    As we've witnessed before, dried bone is a tough intermediate barrier and this 'double' bone experiment is a great example. From the angled deformation of the XTP we see a snapshot in time of what the bone angle was when impacted. The top of the bone's center axis was tilted rearward and rotated slightly, what I referred to as a compound angle. IIRC, and please correct me if I'm wrong, the twist rate for the 44mag is 1x20", meaning there was minimal bullet rotation as it penetrated <4" of bone leaving asymmetrical holes.

    Looking at the locations of the bullet holes in plastic water bottles, this bullet, despite its deformed shape, travelled straight and true in relationship to the M29's bore axis; from an eyeballing perspective.

    By the way, did you notice the green cottonwood leaves and blue sky in the last picture?
     
  7. 481

    481 Member

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    Yeah, that's it.

    Rub it in. :rolleyes:

    :D
     
  8. 2zulu1

    2zulu1 Member

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    38 Super

    The current issue of American Rifleman has an article about using the Super as a personal defense caliber, albeit from very expensive Wilson and Les Baer carry models. In addition there's an article about the Coonan 1911/357mag.

    In previous tests on this thread we've seen some results of using the 357mag/125gr XTP bullet in the Super.

    Over the years I've witnessed some very violent bullet impacts against various types of intermediate barriers shooting different calibers and bullet designs. In one such test I handloaded an old tech 147gr Winchester JHP in the Super to ~1280fps, well beyond the bullet's velocity design. This 147gr loading isn't very far removed from factory 357mag/158gr/1240fps hollow points.

    Using a 1.5mm hard steel barrier, five one gallon water bottles were placed behind the steel plate and on top of a 1/2" section of pressed board. The pressed wood was wet from two previous tests that were conducted in other calibers.

    In the below pic is a gaping hole in the pressed wood caused by an explosive impact on #1 bottle after first penetrating the hard steel plate, seen on the left side of the pic.

    [​IMG]

    Bullet exited #5 bottle and was not recovered, but given the violent bullet impact on the first two bottles, it appears that the bullet jacket petals folded inward upon impacting the steel plate.

    Getting back to bone tests, there's still the other knob end of the leg bone that can be used in another bone test, but I haven't decided upon a caliber/bullet selection yet. I have a pretty good assortment of service caliber ammunition and handloads to choose from and I'm looking for suggestions from y'all. :)
     
  9. RBid

    RBid Member

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    This

    Thread

    Is


    AWESOME!!!!!!


    I'm 35, and I feel like a 5 year old on a candy store shopping spree!
     
  10. 481

    481 Member

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    Yeah, 2z1's tests, besides being very informative, are a lot of fun to look at.

    :)
     
  11. 2zulu1

    2zulu1 Member

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    Getting Serious

    These tests are interesting to conduct and share the results with like minded enthusiasts. This time of year is when we see increased mountain lion activity and I've noticed increased signs the last week or so, scat and scratches in dirt. Also, I'm seeing widespread rooting from javelina, and today a large hog track and fresh bobcat tracks on a road out back.

    This time of year is also change my "home" carry to a M29 Mountain, it's a very comfortable OWB carry and 44mag is a great brush caliber when loaded with appropriate hardcast bullets.

    I haven't found the kill yet, but finding this part of a heifer leg outback escalates the seriousness of situational awareness to the next higher level.

    [​IMG]

    Once a lion becomes acclimated to being around humans the odds of having an encounter increases, so far it's only been late at night using a strong Streamlight flashlight. The last night encounter was at 80 yards and its yellow eyes were above the 32" range grass it was standing in.

    I expect the rancher that lost the heifer will contact Game & Fish, unfortunate for the lion, but the trade off is the safety of young children who live in the area.

    I can go outside a thousand times and nothing eventful happens, then things happen in streaks.

    If 481 would be so kind, what is the expected penetration of a 44 caliber, 255gr WFN, with a 0.350" meplat @1200fps?
     
  12. 481

    481 Member

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    Sure. Here at "Calculator Abuse Central", I am always happy to comply with such a request. :p

    A .44 caliber, 255gr WFN, with a 0.350" meplat @1200fps will penetrate to a maximum depth of 40.85 inches in soft tissue.

    If those cats out there are wearing 16 ga steel plate to make you look bad :evil:, a .44 caliber, 255gr WFN @1200fps will pass through it with and exit it at 1047fps- that's enough to go through another 37.66 inches of soft tissue.
     
  13. 2zulu1

    2zulu1 Member

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    Thank you, that's a lot of penetration given that the meplat is basically a 9mm caliber, I'll have to upload some pics for a side by side comparison.

    The metal penetration calculation is more relevant than it appears, but to what extent I can't say with certainty. Since recent mountain lion activity here has been on my mind a bit, what many people don't realize is that a mature lion is capable of a 20ft vertical leap and a 40ft horizontal leap. With leaves on mesquite, there are a number of places out back that one can't even see 10 feet. When the leaves drop the visual distance will increase depending on the density of the branches.

    If branches become an intermediate barrier, it's good to have a ballpark idea as to penetration depth because the bullet impact angle will undoubtedly be less than optimal. I don't know how many inches of mesquite equals 1.5mm of a hard steel plate, but we can run the numbers for double and triple plates to determine a 'worse' case scenario for bullet penetration through soft tissue. What we can also learn is that some calibers can be excluded from trail carry in areas where branches are present and the bullet may need to penetrate branches, but also bone before reaching vital organs.

    It may be interesting to add branches to our bone tests to get an idea of what does and doesn't work in wooded areas. One of the biggest hurdles to overcome will be keeping the bone in place during bullet impact against branches.

    Thoughts?
     
  14. 481

    481 Member

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    (In my best Don Adams/"Get Smart" voice) Would you believe that I have a bullet penetration model for various wood species and other structural materials?

    http://www.wbdg.org/ccb/DOD/UFC/ufc_4_023_07.pdf

    That, and several other ballistic/material penetration models, can be found in Chapter 5 (5-10 through 5-14) of the document linked above.

    Who needs to guess? :D
     
  15. Ak.Hiker

    Ak.Hiker Member

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    I have done penetration tests with the 255 grain WFN 44 magnum loaded to about 1200 and they easily penetrated 7 inches of dry spruce. I have also found that the Sierra 250 grain FPJ at the same velocity in the 44 is another great standard weight bullet for deep penetration.
     
  16. 481

    481 Member

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    Ak.Hiker,

    That is pretty cool. :cool:

    The penetration model for structural materials and wood that I got from the DoD document linked above says that your .429 caliber 255 gr. WFN @ 1200fps would produce a maximum penetration depth of 9.17 inches in dry pine (closest I could get to spruce so it'll have to do :() and would exit that 7 inch thick piece of dry spruce at a speed of 172.15fps so it seems the model agrees with you. :D

    I know that one instance is hardly an "unshakeable confirmation" of the model, but it is encouraging. :)
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2012
  17. 2zulu1

    2zulu1 Member

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    Is that with bark attached or without? :p

    Well, some critter took the hoof and the breeze we had yesterday also washed out my boot prints from two days ago. Came across another track, although somewhat muted, this is a big cat. It took a lot of force to break off that piece of leg bone.
     
  18. 481

    481 Member

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    I am sorry. I don't have a model for that. :D
     
  19. 2zulu1

    2zulu1 Member

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    Just wanted to take a quick moment to show the size relationship between two calibers. For those who don't handload or have a 44mag, here's what a 300 grain Sierra JSP bullet looks like compared to a loaded 9mm/147gr XTP.

    [​IMG]

    While factory 147gr XTPs have a MV of ~1,000fps, the handloaded 300gr JSP out of this M29 has an MV that exceeds 1200fps and is capable of taking down anything in this part of Arizona. The slightly longer than SAAMI spec COAL fits in the S&W cylinder safely.

    [​IMG]

    This nickel plated M29 is a BBQ get together conversation piece and will be carried at this year's Thanksgiving festivities. The backyard shooting range will be full of activity, including young people. :)
     
  20. Ak.Hiker

    Ak.Hiker Member

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    Those 300 grain Sierra bullets are very tough. Even at 1050 or so they hit hard and offer deep penetration.
     
  21. Dr.Rob

    Dr.Rob Moderator Staff Member

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  22. 2zulu1

    2zulu1 Member

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    That Privi ammunition looks very promising for those who carry carry the 44mag. For the handloader, the 44mag may be the most versatile handgun caliber that delivers top tier performance in a number of different situations.

    I load the 44 to levels to achieve very good bullet performance and controllable double action split times. Experimenting with different powders, and I'm not finished with load development, the above 300gr JSP is clocking 1075fps out of a M29 Mountain. This is a very deep penetrating bullet that's easy on the hands.

    The M29 Mountain is a very comfortable carry, weighs in at approximately 39 ounces, has a tapered barrel, narrow top rib and rounded cylinder edges for easier holstering;

    [​IMG]

    Pics were taken on its first hike and it presently has that 'carry' appearance;

    [​IMG]
     
  23. 2zulu1

    2zulu1 Member

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    On the trail

    Thought I'd take few moments and share a few pics of the scenery when I take a walk out back on the property. There are open areas and then there are areas with reduced visibility like this;

    [​IMG]

    In the above pic, the light tan colored range grass is holster height. Below pic shows how visibility is continuing to decrease. Keep in mind that rattlers are still out this time of year, in fact, a neighbor's horse was bit on the head while it was grazing. The vet came and drained a lot of fluid from the swollen bite area, vet also stated that it was common for animals to develop heart issues after rattler bites.

    [​IMG]

    Like a typical mountain trail, brush grows along side a trail like this mesquite.

    [​IMG]

    There are times when mesquite is so thick that one must walk around it.

    [​IMG]

    Shortly after snapping the above pic, I heard a female mountain lion about a couple hundred yards to the left, and a barking dog ceased barking. This is only a few yards away from where the heifer leg was found, pic in an above post.

    Next is a game trail that leads into high density mesquite, size of the entrance would be comfortable for javelina, bobcats and coyotes etc;

    [​IMG]

    In this area of the property are a number of game trails that also by their very nature, attract predators. It appears that there are two mountain lions whose territories overlap here, a male with its 5.5" footprints and a female with her 3.5" tracks. I've noticed those two sized tracks for the last five years, they typically begin this time of year as the temps cool down.

    Most of the kills I've noticed have been done by the female, a 200# mastiff that was leading a feral dog pack, a coyote, four javelina during a period of three days and others that I don't know which one did what.

    The male tracks were noticed about the time the heifer was killed, there was also a black lab that was killed not far from the heifer leg. All this has happened over the last five years at this part of the property. There were also three Great Danes (two large and a smaller one) that were roaming in this area. One of the Great Danes was hit by a car a out two miles from me and the remaining two were never seen again after the male was sighted.

    Given all this, and we haven't talked about hogs, below is a few bullets that come to mind for personal protection in this environment;

    [​IMG]

    L-R
    For pistol is the 125gr Gold Dot, either for 357SIG or 38 Super,

    357mag
    170gr Keith (Rimrock)
    180gr WFNGC (Cast Performance)

    10mm - 200gr WFNGC (Double Tap)

    44 mag
    255gr WFN (Cast Performance)
    300gr WFN (Hunter's Supply)
    300gr WFNGC (Cast Performance)

    And when I learn there is a big hog in the area, Marlin 1895;
    405gr WFN (Rucker)

    If I were to do a trail bone test, it would appear something like this;

    [​IMG]

    Some years ago a young man was out with his dog hiking on family ranch when his dog was attacked by a 250# black bear. During the ensuing mêlée, with less than optimal shot angles, the young man emptied his 41mag on the bear to stop the fight.

    As a dog owner who lives fairly close to wilderness areas, I like the choice of hardcast bullets that are available to the handloader. :)
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2012
  24. Malamute

    Malamute Member

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    Have you had hogs invade the area? I'd heard they were moving westward, there werent any in the state when I lived in N Az years ago. Hope the State has an open season on them like varmints.


    A guy up this way killed a sow grizzly that jumped him. He used a 41 mag with 210 gr factory hollow points. 2 body hits, they were pass throughs, and the bear was DRT. I think it was about 300#


    BTW, I shot a few deer and elk bones with the 22 rifle. The deer bones were shattered clear through when shot in the center. I didnt shoot the ends, the bones still had the skin on (lower legs) and were a bit smelly. The elk bones shot through on one (shattered a section out of it), and the ends seemed to stop the bullets. I was using hollow points. Will take some solids out next time and see if theres a diference. The elk bones have been out there for a few weeks. Will ask around and see if anyone has fresh elk bones I can do more shooting at, and with other things
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2012
  25. 2zulu1

    2zulu1 Member

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    Wouldn't say we've been invaded by hogs in this part of Arizona , but I've seen hog tracks including those of a large boar; Game and Fish states there are feral hogs in this part of the state. There are also hogs in the Arizona strip, Mt Trumble area.

    FWIW, after a 44mag, 50 round double action session at the range, I'm back to carrying the 357mag at my place. :)
     
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