Quantcast
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Petals thru bone

Discussion in 'Handguns: General Discussion' started by 2zulu1, Aug 2, 2011.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. 481

    481 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2009
    Messages:
    1,950
    Rattled yer teeth too much?

    :D
     
  2. 2zulu1

    2zulu1 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2011
    Messages:
    1,089
    Location:
    Arizona
    That's not all it rattled, did a lot of movement while shooting and the groups opened up a bit when I began pushing the split times. Didn't help that two of the powders had sticky chambers. :)

    Did a 357mag test last week, thought I'd try the factory Remington 125gr SJHP, it chronographs;

    Dan Wesson 4" 1456fps/588fpe,
    S&W M327 TRR8 5" 1392fps/538fpe
    Colt Trooper MkIII 6" 1520fps/641fpe,
    S&W M686P 6" 1627fps/735fpe,
    Ruger Blackhawk 7.5" 1648fps/754fpe,

    The 686P is carried in a Bianchi clam shell shoulder rig at my place and was used for this test. Simple bone set up;

    2012-11-16_16-11-22_123.gif

    I know a lot of departments carried this ammunition, ours didn't, preferring the 158gr SJHP instead. While this is only one test, I was disappointed with the 125;

    2012-11-16_16-17-55_107.gif

    Looking at the lead fragmentation, it appears the lead core would have tumbled.

    The specifics;

    1627fps
    Asymmetrical expansion average 0.582" - 1.63x caliber,
    Recovered weight 83.7grs
     
  3. 2zulu1

    2zulu1 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2011
    Messages:
    1,089
    Location:
    Arizona
    12 gauge Barnes expander link

    Thanks to forum member 481 for testing the Barnes expander slug and posting some great pics of this innovative shotgun ammunition design and construction. :)

    http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=688558

    There are also OO and #4 buck penetration/crush cavity numbers for comparison between the the three types of ammunition using the Schwartz and MacPherson models.

    Also, I now have Hornady's Critical Duty 135gr +P ammunition to test and I'm looking forward to see how this new bullet design performs against different intermediate barriers. Winter weather here, low 50s and rain off/on. :)
     
  4. 481

    481 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2009
    Messages:
    1,950
    As always, I look forward to your tests, 2zulu1- always very well done.

    Can't wait to see how the Critical Duty line up holds up to what you've got in store for it. :evil:
     
  5. pps

    pps Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2008
    Messages:
    461
    I shot some .380 Barnes (buffalo bore), .380 critical defense and some 140 grain Barnes in .357 (out of a 2" snub nose) through bone embedded into ballistics gel.

    The barnes did great through the bone, and some of the petals were really beaten back. The critical defense turned to powder/fragments.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1l6vrb4Z-Lk

    Skip to about 10 minutes if you don't want to suffer through my crappy videography,
     
  6. 2zulu1

    2zulu1 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2011
    Messages:
    1,089
    Location:
    Arizona
    It must be a challenge to design a 380 caliber bullet that will penetrate through intermediate barriers and reach vital organs.

    Here's a Critical Defense ammunition test that took the 357mag, 125gr FTX bullet well beyond its intended design parameters. This 125gr FTX bullet expanded w/i a 4x4, this is a tough bullet design/construction;

    4x4125grFTX357mag020.gif

    :)
     
  7. 2zulu1

    2zulu1 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2011
    Messages:
    1,089
    Location:
    Arizona
    9mm Hornady Critical Duty 135gr +P

    After the disappointment of the 357mag/125gr SJHP factory load tested above, I thought it might be time to test a modern 9mm bullet designed for duty carry and personal defense.

    2012-12-17_12-01-59_87.gif

    Gel data (FBI protocol) and photos can be viewed at Hornady's website, so, let's see how this ammunition performs against dried out range cow bones. Not satisfied with a rib or typical leg bone test, how about a leg bone test at the knuckle joint?

    2012-12-17_12-18-11_362.gif

    In a similar 10mm test, a leg joint was pulverised as was the 200gr XTP/~1200s.

    In bottle #1 several large bone fragments came to rest, as well as the bullet's lead core and jacket;

    2012-12-17_12-22-03_437.gif

    This is a tough bullet design, core weight was 71.4grs and 104.2grs with the jacket.

    With its polymer hollow cavity plug, this ammunition from Hornady is worth further testing IMO. :)
     
  8. Ak.Hiker

    Ak.Hiker Member

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2011
    Messages:
    25
    Location:
    Homer Alaska
    Dried bone sure gives bullets a real workout. I have tested out several expanding bullets on dried moose bones and found that the Barnes X bullet as well as the Nosler Partition Gold really hold together.
     
  9. 2zulu1

    2zulu1 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2011
    Messages:
    1,089
    Location:
    Arizona
    Thanks for sharing your moose tests. :)

    I have X bullets for the 38 Super and 45 auto, 180gr Partitions for the 357mag, but haven't tested them against large bones. I've thought about loading up the 140gr X bullet for the G20, but it's one of those projects that hasn't happened yet.

    Do you have any feedback on other copper only bullet companies?

    A few days ago, in between rain storms, I came across large, as in really large, boar tracks while walking on the property. I've encountered domestic sows w/o incident, but I don't know what behavior to expect from a large boar. In any event, 10mm/200gr WFNs are current carry just in case. I can go for walks thousands of times without incident, but sooner or later an incident will occur and thus far I've correctly anticipated the correct caliber and bullet weight for the situation. Fortunately, there are a number of calibers and bullet designs to choose from for town and home carry.
     
  10. Ak.Hiker

    Ak.Hiker Member

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2011
    Messages:
    25
    Location:
    Homer Alaska
    357 Penetration Testing

    Used my 2.75 inch Ruger Security Six. I wanted to compare the Double Tap 158 grain Nosler JHP to the Federal 125 grain JHP. Both bullets have quite a bit of exposed lead and both are full power loads. I lined up four 4X4's with a sheet of plexiglas between board 3 and 4. For fun I also ran some hard cast and a 158 grain JSP as well. The 125 grain Federal penetrated two boards and the exit on the second board was dramatic. The DT 158 grain Nosler JHP penetrated 2 boards and lodged fully expanded about half way through the third board. The exit on the second board was just as dramatic as the 125 grain Federal. Very similar performance with a little more penetration. The 158 grain Speer Unicore went through 3 boards and punched a big hole in the plexiglas. The 180 grain DT hardcast also penetrated 3 boards cut through the plexiglas and lodged in the fourth board. The last two loads tested were both 200 grain hardcast. One from CorBon and one from Doubletap. Both 200 grain loads went through all 4 boards and the plexiglas making a clean exit on the back of the fourth board.
     
  11. Malamute

    Malamute Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2004
    Messages:
    3,068
    Location:
    Rocky Mts
    Sorry I missed following up last fall, I caught a dose of the flu that turned into pneumonia, I didn't get out in the hills much for a while. Will keep my eyes open for bones again, they turn up now and then.

    Glad to see this thread resurrected.
     
  12. 2zulu1

    2zulu1 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2011
    Messages:
    1,089
    Location:
    Arizona
    Those 158 JHPs are nice, and wicked out of a 6". :)

    Every monsoon season, summer rain July-early Sept, has a way of skewing everyday life here. Critters can, and often do incritterable things that can be life threatening. Shovels are placed near porch doors for those times when it's not advisable to shoot rattlers coiled on concrete slabs, but using shovels is a messy way to dispatch this type of vermin.

    During July there were a pair of violent T-storms hours apart, when the rain and wind subsided, a neighbor (over a mile away) found his two Rotts dead outside. It appears that they were killed by a single mountain lion, we don't know for sure because all tracks were washed away. That same morning about 0430, a neighbor witnessed a very large black bear running about three miles from my home.

    It doesn't stop there, a rancher I know some distance away, came home to find that a black had been inside while they were away. A few nights later while preparing for bed, a black bear ripped a screen off the bedroom window and began climbing inside, the rancher got his .357mag off the night stand and shot it in the top of its head. It was about a two foot shot, the JHP did not penetrate the bear's skull, but the bear did fall back and walked away from the home. Because of the high numbers of bears in the area, tracking hounds failed to find this particular bear.

    I haven't seen much in the way of feral dog pack activity, but one neighbor encountered an aggressive pit bull breed while walking not far from my home. He shot at it but missed. A few days later this pit bull pack killed a goat, the pack has not been seen since and it's believed they are no longer alive.

    Talking with the rancher who had the bear confrontation reminded me that it's always best to train for the 1% scenarios, for me this now includes bears, in addition to hogs, dogs, coyotes, lions and rattlers to name a few. Plus, there's always the threat of two legged social miscreants at any time of day or night.

    As a result of the rancher's encounter, I've gone to 10mm for carry. What separates the 10mm from the .357mag and .38Super is the 200gr WFN @~1200fps. I ordered a custom 1911 in January (it should be here soon) because of potential hog encounters, now, everything is on the table.

    It's been an interesting and busy year thus far, ammunition testing has really helped in bullet selection for carry, regardless of predator size. :)

    When the 1911 arrives, I have some Double Tap 10mm ammunition to test, Barnes 125/155gr JHPs.
     
  13. Ak.Hiker

    Ak.Hiker Member

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2011
    Messages:
    25
    Location:
    Homer Alaska
    I did a quick test with my Glock 29 10mm. Same set up as the 357 test. The 200 grain Hornady XTP factory load went through two boards and lodged in the third. Similar penetration to the 158 grain 357 JHP tested. Just not as dramatic with less expansion. I also ran some Double Tap 200 grain FMJ loads. One with the Hornady bullet and the other with the Montana Gold bullet. Both FMJ loads went through all 4 boards and the plexiglass. Also ran a 300 grain Double Tap 45 Colt loaded with the Speer Unicore bullet. This one penetrated three boards plus the plexiglass and lodged in the fourth board. It expanded a bit with full weight retention. I really like this load in my 4 5/8 inch Blackhawk.
     
  14. Malamute

    Malamute Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2004
    Messages:
    3,068
    Location:
    Rocky Mts
    Any idea what bullet weight?

    HP's aren't usually good for penetration on large live animal bones, or even on tough bodies. I knew a guy in N Az that shot a black bear from a foot away with a 357 with HP's that was down, it didn't penetrate through the fat into the body cavity. I think he said it penetrated about 3".
     
  15. 2zulu1

    2zulu1 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2011
    Messages:
    1,089
    Location:
    Arizona
    I apologize for the delay in responding, the rancher had his .357mag loaded with 110gr JHPs, not my choice, but adequate in the smuggling/trafficking area we live in. We spoke about using hard cast bullets, he casts his own, but he simply didn't have the time to make the ammunition change.

    When the temps cool down to outer clothing temps I like the mag loaded with 180gr WFNGCs or 173gr Keith bullet, plus 158gr JHPs on speedloaders. The mag is very adaptable to living in rural environments.

    Anyone practice with the 155gr Missouri Bullet hardcast in 10mm, what powder?
     
  16. ATLDave

    ATLDave Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2011
    Messages:
    3,464
    I've loaded up some 155 gr's Missouri LSWC's in front of AA#7. That turns out to be kind of smoky. Right now, I'm trying to get it downloaded to IPSC major levels.
     
  17. Arizona_Mike

    Arizona_Mike Member

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2013
    Messages:
    3,294
    What is the reason for this testing? I'd talk to a butcher at my local game processing shop about some fresh bones.

    Mike
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page