PG Only Shotguns and Hip Shooting 101...

[Justin]

If you apply coventional thinking to an unconventional weapon, you will never see it's value.

Oh? Allow me to re-post Dave's initial challenge:

And for those doubtful of the validity of this opinion or mine, here's a challenge. It's the same one I started on TFL.

Any PG only fan living close to Central MD is invited to a shootoff.

We'll shoot your COF.

We'll use the ammo of your choice.

YOU can use any PG only shotgun you want to,with any accessories up to belt feed and lazer sights.

If that isn't unconventional shooting, I don't know what is. Dave explicitly stated in his challenge that the PGO shotgun advocates could design the course of fire, use any sort of ammunition they wished, and could also use nearly any accessory they see fit. (Presumably this would preclude one accessorizing their PG shotgun with a stock. )

His rules are probably the most open I've ever seen for a shooting match. He is, frankly, giving you the benefit of the doubt, and allowing you every competitive advantage you might wish. I hardly see how that's "conventional."

If there is some sort of unconventional use for a PGO shotgun that you are aware of, then design a course of fire that allows the advantages of a PGO Shotgun to shine while demonstrating the weak points of other shotguns. It shouldn't be that hard to do.

Design the course of fire. Post a diagram online that stipulates how many targets of what size and at what distances, how many rounds, and what the scoring rules are. Run the course of fire with a PGO Shotgun and a shot timer. Post your times and scores, as well as a video on YouTube. Others of us will use your diagram to construct the same stages on our local ranges, and run through them and post our videos, scores, and times. I think the data would be illuminating.

You stated that you believe a pistol-gripped shotgun to have value. If you perceive the weapon to have some sort of advantage over other firearm configurations, you should have no problem demonstrating that for all of us to see.

 

[MAX100]

Oh? Allow me to re-post Dave's initial challenge:

Dave can probably out shoot most of us anyway. His shooting skills have been a big part of his career. I don't have the time shoot as often as he does.

I don't think anyone is arguing that a PGO shotgun is faster than the stocked shotgun. The question is: is it too slow in skilled hands to be used in a HD situation. I say no.


GC

 

[Justin]

I say no.

Without actual proof, this is just your opinion. PG shotgun advocates continually make vague references to situations in which such a configuration is advantageous. All I'm asking for is an honest demonstration. I've done so in multiple threads covering this topic, and have yet to see one person make even a shade-tree attempt to demonstrate the utility of a PG shotgun.

 

[waterhouse]

Dave can probably out shoot most of us anyway. His shooting skills has been a big part of his career. I don't have the time shoot as often as he does.

I believe at one point (he can correct me if I get this wrong) Dave said that if he ran the course of fire with a stocked gun he would win, and that if he switched guns with the other shooter he would likely lose. In other words, even with all of his experience, he felt that the stocked shotgun was such an advantage that it would negate a large gap in shooter skills.

ETA: Search skills paid off:

We could shoot your COF etc, and I'd win handily. We could then swap guns, and you'd trounce me. They're THAT much of a disadvantage.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=987672&postcount=11

 

[MAX100]

Dave said that if he ran the course of fire with a stocked gun he would win, and that if he switched guns with the other shooter he would likely lose.

If he is shooting from the hip he probably would lose. I have no problem aiming and controlling a PGO shotgun. Just like I don't have a problem aiming and controlling revolver.


GC

 

[amd6547]

Here is my COF...
2:00am, my darkened house...
Bad guy steps into the light cast by the streetlight across the street that slightly illuminates my living room. He is 10 feet away and I can clearly see he is armed.
He is unaware of my presence.
I am confident I can take this shot and hit where I want 10 times out of 10.

 

[Robert]

Can you diagram that for us so we can set up a shoot house?

 

[Jorg Nysgerrig]

Can you diagram that for us so we can set up a shoot house?

Done.

 

[PJR]

Interesting that the man who declares the PGO is "an exceptional weapon" and claims "mutant talent" with firearms is shortening his engagement distances for the PGO as the thread progresses.

Limited utility is all I claim for the PG shotgun, but, within that limited utility, it is an exceptional weapon.

I am able to hit with my PG shotgun at what I consider reasonable and realistic ranges...25yds and less for the PG Mossberg.

Sounds reasonable, even "mutant" for a guy who only takes his PGO out every few months.

But then he says....

I'll think about that the next time I am laying 00 buck patterns on target at 20 feet.

Less than 7 yards.

He is 10 feet away and I can clearly see he is armed.
He is unaware of my presence.
I am confident I can take this shot and hit where I want 10 times out of 10.

Now down to just over 3 whole yards. Yeah, that is certainly an "exceptional weapon" wielded by someone with "mutant talent."

Wow. I am impressed.

 

[dom1104]

hmm, I agree with the majority that stocked shotguns are superiour, but I am starting to get the feeling we are all piling on amd, lets not crucify the poor guy. we ARE all on the same side after all.

there are some truths we hold to be self-evident.

1. stocked shotguns are superiour and are how the shotgun is designed to be used.

2. a PGO shotgun turns it into either a hip fired weapon, or a weapon that is impossible to be aimed, or a large, cumbersome handheld weapon that must be brought back to be reloaded.

but, CAN it deliver a amazing payload to said unaware home invader on the lawn? <who hopefully isnt a guy with an umbrella picking up a dog terd>


Sure. at ten feet I can hit a guy with my pistol with my weak hand, just point shooting.

 

[MAX100]

a PGO shotgun turns it into either a hip fired weapon, or a weapon that is impossible to be aimed

Maybe you have a problem aiming one.


GC

 

[amd6547]

Well, I have stated in this interminable thread that I consider the strength of my PG shotgun to be indoor self defense. Thus my COF.
But, I have fired my various incarnations of the PG shotgun at ranges out to 25yds using both full power slugs and 00 buckshot, over several decades and I hit what I point at.
Nice picture, by the way, except I don't use a pistol grip like that, nor do I hold it in front of my face. Not too big on hats at 2am, and I am certainly not a stick figure...In fact, in the words of Neil Young "I got a pot belly, it's not too big, gets in my way, when I'm driving my rig".
I have posted this before, but here is a pic of my PG shotgun...

...And a pic of what I would be much more likely to use...It has a PG also, and I would probably use it in folded mode indoors...

 

[MAX100]

Here is my PGO Breacher shotgun, Pardner Protector.



A rack of Military Pistol grip 870s posted here on THR.





GC

 

[Dave McCracken]

A couple things....

Jorg, you win. That's funny.

As to the utility of PGO shotguns, let's follow Justin's idea and compare/contrast our times on a standard COF with or without stocks on our shotguns.

 

[conw]

I gather that most people who buy/use PGO shotguns realize that they are, for the most part, a novelty.

What's the harm?

As Dave said, most people he's met who buy/use them DON'T actually realize they are a novelty.

Why are you even taking up the discussion in a disagreeable manner if you agree with his premise?

His challenge, unanswered thus far (which speaks loudly) is an object lesson to people who might be considering one of these for serious uses because they saw it on TV.

If I were considering a PGO and didn't know better and came across this thread, I would consider it a favor. Yeah, his tone's "jaundiced" as he put it, but it's basically a public service announcement.

 

[dom1104]

now regarding that picture of PGO military shotguns, I pointed that out when the original guy posted that, and I was told the reason they were all PGO is that the military used them for breaching.

Which makes sense, the majority of those in the picture are breachers, with REAL breaching attachments, or mag tube standoffs etc.

there are a few in there that are odd ducks tho.

 

[Southern Rebel]

Nah, I have to agree with AMD. Some of don't have any fancy "courses to run" and matches in which to compete. What we have is a specific set of entry points to defend against unwanted invasions of our homes. I figure if my choice of weapons provides an absolute ability to stop that unwanted invasion, then it is a mute point as to whether my weapon would compete with your weapon under different challenges.

Now I do own other shotguns (with real stocks, actually!) that I use for recreational birdhunting and deer hunting. I have no interest in competitive shooting and view range trips as mostly necessary practice, not as a recreational trip. That doesn't mean that I don't respect the abilities and hobbies of those who do participate in other uses for guns.

I guess it kinda reminds me of trying to compare my beat-up old bike that I occasionally use for a quick trip downtown versus what Lance Armstrong uses for his vocation. Despite his skills and advanced equipment, it would be futile for him to try to persuade me to upgrade to his type of equipment. The two needs are just not comparable. While I am sure he could use his advanced equipment to do my occasional runs (definitely with more efficiency and grace), his demonstration would be for naught.

Now it is time for all us shotgunners to play nice and unite and go after all those uninformed gunowners who think they can defend themselves with 22's, 25's, 32's, and ......(well, we need to decide at what level to stop). Naw, I guess I will get booted off the team again because I occasionally pocket a 32 keltec when I ride that "worthless" bike. :banghead:

Geez, I guess the only way I can come out as a winner is to join the radical muslims as a suicide bomber - but with my previous history, I would likely end up with not enough explosive fire power and just shoot my eye out (or some other necessary bodily part!

 

[waterhouse]

I guess it kinda reminds me of trying to compare my beat-up old bike that I occasionally use for a quick trip downtown versus what Lance Armstrong uses for his vocation. Despite his skills and advanced equipment, it would be futile for him to try to persuade me to upgrade to his type of equipment.

I don't agree with this analogy at all. A better analogy would be to put you both on the exact same bike, except Lance isn't allowed to touch his handlebars during the race. Dave is actually agreeing to run his beat up bike (a stock, no frills 870) against Lance's super light weight racer (build any shotgun you want with any accessories you want, as long as it is PGO) and saying that he will win.

I understand that PGOs serve a purpose in armored cars and breaching roles and trekking through thick brush in bear country. They aren't useless. But I don't understand why someone would use one for home defense. I've heard the claim of "tight quarters" in small homes, but a stocked shotgun can be run at the same length as a PGO if need be:



I've shot using this hold and I've shot using a PGO. This is more stable because the forearm is trapping the stock for support.

 

[Leadhead]

I can't believe no one lives close to Dave who can take him up on his "challenge"

It is a generous proposition as "any course of fire" gives alot of advantage to the pgo challenger......I imagine a course of fire involving fitting the gun into a pack ( Dave you can remove your barrel to make it easier) and running 5 miles with a full load of camping gear pausing to hit a few clays at 25 yards or less every mile.

Mostly though I'd like to see how much slower the hits come at less then 25 yards......are we talking minutes,seconds or fractions of seconds?

 

[Leadhead]

As to the utility of PGO shotguns, let's follow Justin's idea and compare/contrast our times on a standard COF with or without stocks on our shotguns.

I like this idea Dave.

What exactly is a standard COF for shotgun defense?

 

[Rshooter]

Without actual proof, this is just your opinion. PG shotgun advocates continually make vague references to situations in which such a configuration is advantageous. All I'm asking for is an honest demonstration. I've done so in multiple threads covering this topic, and have yet to see one person make even a shade-tree attempt to demonstrate the utility of a PG shotgun.

Justin, I stated my case in my reply to Dave on page 2. If someone enters my home uninvited I will pull out my 870 in a pistol grip configuration. Chances are he will lose, even if he is a three gun master.

 

[Jorg Nysgerrig]

I guess it kinda reminds me of trying to compare my beat-up old bike that I occasionally use for a quick trip downtown versus what Lance Armstrong uses for his vocation. Despite his skills and advanced equipment, it would be futile for him to try to persuade me to upgrade to his type of equipment. The two needs are just not comparable. While I am sure he could use his advanced equipment to do my occasional runs (definitely with more efficiency and grace), his demonstration would be for naught.

It would be more like Lance Armstrong suggesting you try a bicycle instead of a unicycle. Lance would beat you while riding a bicycle but then lose to you when he raced riding the unicycle. Why? Because unicycles are for clowns.

 

[Justin]

What exactly is a standard COF for shotgun defense?

I don't think there's a standard one for shotgun defense, though some of the USPSA pistol classifiers might be a good place to start.

Frankly, I'm giving serious thought to taking amd up on his proposed COF. A single IPSC target at ten feet, with the shooter starting behind a barricade that obscures the target: either a Bianchi Barricade or a standard IPSC wall. At the go signal, engage the target with one round of 00 buckshot.

Score the targets as you would a standard IPSC target, and post the time and hit factor.

 

[Justin]

Justin, I stated my case in my reply to Dave on page 2. If someone enters my home uninvited I will pull out my 870 in a pistol grip configuration. Chances are he will lose, even if he is a three gun master.

Luck and home court advantage are certainly good things to have on your side, but are not an effective replacement for good skills and the proper tools.

I never said a PGO shotgun wasn't deadly, but the question that I'd like to see answered is "What is the difference in practical employment of a PGO shotgun vs. a properly stocked one?"

The secondary question would be whether or not the step down in speed/performance is offset by the perceived advantages of having a smaller weapon.

 

[earlthegoat2]

12 Gauge is popular for steel shot waterfowl hunting. It's also known as a "do-everything" gauge, particularly among those who really know nothing about shotguns, and therefore aren't too picky about the guns they buy.

What was said here in a different post could also be applied to all those that insist on a PGO shotgun. Read something like this:

PGO shotguns are popular for home defense. Particularly among those who really know nothing about shotguns, and therefore aren't too picky about the guns they buy.