Picked up some hen's teeth today

Discussion in 'Handloading and Reloading' started by vaalpens, Jan 15, 2021.

  1. vaalpens

    vaalpens Member

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    I use the method when I try a new bullet in 357sig. Normally once I get the ogive just outside the case mouth, it will dictate what the COL is. Here is a picture with a 357sig round. DSCN2595.JPG
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2021
  2. longdayjake

    longdayjake Member

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    1.135 will work but you won't have much bullet left inside that casing. Make sure that the leade on your barrel will allow them to go that long before you load a ton. Seated out that far, your load data looks to be reasonable. It may be a little hot, but it sounds to me like you're used to the heat when it comes to loading. Also, sorry the 115s took so long. We finally got all our machines to cooperate this week and we were able to ship 1 months worth of 115 orders in a single week. I can't tell you how excited that makes me. I'm really sick of being behind in shipping.
     
  3. vaalpens

    vaalpens Member

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    Thanks Jake. I knew it was going to take some time when I ordered them in October, so not a big deal.

    I have done a plunk and cycle test, so a 1.135" COL should work. My only concern at this time and possible reason why I would shorten the COL is that it seemed the bullets came out a bit easy when I used my impact bullet puller. I will probably do a few more setback tests before making a final decision on the COL.
     
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  4. vaalpens

    vaalpens Member

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    That is correct based on the Hornady's load data listed above.

    I normally leave some wiggle room for the difference in length of cases. For me it is not just when the cases touch, but when they touch and they turn freely, then the ogive is probably inside the case.
     
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  5. 1KPerDay

    1KPerDay Member

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    Looking forward to your results. I load these to 1.135” also. Works in all my guns.
     
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  6. vaalpens

    vaalpens Member

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    Thanks!
     
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  7. vaalpens

    vaalpens Member

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    I finally decided on a COL of 1.125 after pulling some bullets using my impact bullet puller. It seemed that the bullets came out easier than it should, so I decided to put a bit more bullet inside the case.

    Today I loaded my first test load using Power Pistol, but will do two more with W244 and CFE Pistol. Hopefully I'll be able to test then within the next couple of weeks.

    Here they are. Ready to be tested.

    IMG_1952.JPG
     

    Attached Files:

  8. mmb617

    mmb617 Member

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    I've been running those same RMR bullets at 1.125 for some time now. No problems in any of my guns.
     
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  9. vaalpens

    vaalpens Member

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    Thanks!
     
  10. Skeptic13

    Skeptic13 Member

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    I decided a long time ago to reload my 9mm 115 gr rounds to 1.125. That length has worked well for me in all of my 9mm pistols.

    Your question was where do I start. It sounds like to me that you are off to great start.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2021
  11. vaalpens

    vaalpens Member

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    Thanks! I have always stayed away from rounds since I needed bullets that would work in 357sig and 9mm. Finally I decided to branch out a bit, exactly when components became scarce, but now I have them and it is time to have fun.
     
  12. vaalpens

    vaalpens Member

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    Just finished loading up the CFE Pistol loads. It was nice to have everything dialed in, and the only thing I had to worry about was measuring the right amount of powder.
    IMG_1953.JPG
     
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  13. Dudedog
    • Contributing Member

    Dudedog Contributing Member

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    Since Vaalpens was nice enough to to send me some hens teeth (RMR 115 FMJs )to play with
    I had to think about what I wanted to try since I normally shoot 124/125s in 9mm.
    With 115s I would need 1090 just to make 125 PF call it 1120 to have some wiggle room. (so no reason to worry about going supersonic looks like they will have to be to make PF)
    I went ahead and loaded them to 1.125 since that is what vaalpens is using.
    Given a limited supply of bullets (and primers for that matter) I went ahead an loaded two charges for the following
    BE86 5.6 and 5.9
    CFE-P 5.5 and 5.8
    Silhouette 5.4 and 5.7
    W244 4.3 and 4.6
    WSF 5.2 and 5.5
    guessing the lower charge should make PF. (but I could be out to lunch on that guess)

    I have some bullets left so I will take either the best 1 or 2 accuracy wise from the above and test some more.
    Once I have a chance I will post the results for everyone.

    Thanks to vallpens for sending me some to play with:)
     
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  14. vaalpens

    vaalpens Member

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    Dudedog, thanks for taking the time to load up some test rounds, test them and then share the results with the forum members.

    I was planning on loading 6 more test loads of 5 with another powder, so for now I will match your W244 loads. I like W244 in all my cartridges, so it is the obvious choice for me. My test loads will be from 4.2gr to 4.7gr.

    Looking forward to compare our results.
     
  15. vaalpens

    vaalpens Member

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    I finished some more loads tonight. This time 6, 5 round W244 loads.

    For testing/evaluation loads I always use a dipper and trickler. Today was difficult with W244. It seems to trickle very well and I had to remove a few kernels and trickled again a few times since I over trickled my mark. I then remembered a THR member posted something about using their phone as monitor, so I decided to use the phone for a better view when I trickled the last few kernels. It worked great. I think from now one I'll probably use it again, especially with my older eyes. Here are a couple of pictures. IMG_1957.JPG
    IMG_1958.JPG
     
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  16. Dudedog
    • Contributing Member

    Dudedog Contributing Member

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    Your are being far more precise.
    For mine I went with charges as thrown as after setting the measure.
    + and -s to doing it that way.
    - does not account for light or heavy charges so not getting the best ES+SD I could, are the results due to the powder or the way the powder behaves in my measure
    + shows what I can expect with that powder the way I normally load
     
  17. vaalpens

    vaalpens Member

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    Made it it to the gun range, a new one for me, today. Testing went well. but it seemed I was a bit rusty. I think I had a few pulled shots, but most of the time I felt comfortable shooting.

    The first loads I tested were using Power Pistol. It seemed I should revisit Power Pistol, but start a bit lower. It was not loaded to max, but it seemed that I lost some accuracy with the higher loads.

    Following are the test results, with a picture of the first load's target, which was also the most accurate for Power Pistol:

    Target was at 15 yards. Test was done using a rest and scope.

    Load-1445-05_15yd.png
    9mm, SP2022, 3.9"
    Case: WIN
    COL: 1.125"
    RMR, 115gr, FMJRN, PowerPistol, 5.9gr, FED100M
    Average: 1110
    ES: 29
    SD: 11.3
    Force: 315
    PF: 127
    Velocities: 1098, 1104, 1127, 1116, 1108
    Grouping @ 15yd: 0.87"
    Test Date: 03/05/2021

    9mm, SP2022, 3.9"
    Case: WIN
    COL: 1.125"
    RMR, 115gr, FMJRN, PowerPistol, 6gr, FED100M
    Average: 1125
    ES: 10
    SD: 4
    Force: 323
    PF: 129
    Velocities: 1131, 1123, 1128, 1124, 1121
    Grouping @ 15yd: 1.89"
    Test Date: 03/05/2021

    9mm, SP2022, 3.9"
    Case: WIN
    COL: 1.125"
    RMR, 115gr, FMJRN, PowerPistol, 6.1gr, FED100M
    Average: 1131
    ES: 29
    SD: 10.4
    Force: 327
    PF: 130
    Velocities: 1132, 1118, 1132, 1128, 1147
    Grouping @ 15yd: 1.57"
    Test Date: 03/05/2021

    9mm, SP2022, 3.9"
    Case: WIN
    COL: 1.125"
    RMR, 115gr, FMJRN, PowerPistol, 6.2gr, FED100M
    Average: 1155
    ES: 5
    SD: 1.9
    Force: 341
    PF: 132
    Velocities: 1155, 1158, 1155, 1153, 1154
    Grouping @ 15yd: 2.29"
    Test Date: 03/05/2021

    9mm, SP2022, 3.9"
    Case: WIN
    COL: 1.125"
    RMR, 115gr, FMJRN, PowerPistol, 6.3gr, FED100M
    Average: 1164
    ES: 24
    SD: 9.9
    Force: 346
    PF: 133
    Velocities: 1156, 1177, 1153, 1164, 1170
    Grouping @ 15yd: 2.92"
    Test Date: 03/05/2021

    9mm, SP2022, 3.9"
    Case: WIN
    COL: 1.125"
    RMR, 115gr, FMJRN, PowerPistol, 6.4gr, FED100M
    Average: 1171
    ES: 28
    SD: 12.9
    Force: 350
    PF: 134
    Velocities: 1160, 1161, 1183, 1188, 1167
    Grouping @ 15yd: 2.65"
    Test Date: 03/05/2021
     
  18. vaalpens

    vaalpens Member

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    The second powder I tested was CFE Pistol. I did not see exceptional accuracy, but accuracy was good. For CFE Pistol the accuracy came in with the higher charges, probably from around 5.5gr upwards. I will retest CFE Pistol at some time, with emphasis on the higher charges.

    Following are the test results, with a picture of the last load's target, which was also the most accurate for CFE Pistol:

    Target was at 15 yards. Test was done using a rest and scope.

    9mm, SP2022, 3.9"
    Case: WIN
    COL: 1.125"
    RMR, 115gr, FMJRN, CFEpistol, 5.3gr, FED100M
    Average: 1095
    ES: 15
    SD: 6.2
    Force: 306
    PF: 125
    Velocities: 1094, 1101, 1096, 1101, 1086
    Grouping @ 15yd: 2.11"
    Test Date: 03/05/2021

    9mm, SP2022, 3.9"
    Case: WIN
    COL: 1.125"
    RMR, 115gr, FMJRN, CFEpistol, 5.4gr, FED100M
    Average: 1116
    ES: 20
    SD: 7.7
    Force: 318
    PF: 128
    Velocities: 1109, 1118, 1115, 1112, 1129
    Grouping @ 15yd: 1.43"
    Test Date: 03/05/2021

    9mm, SP2022, 3.9"
    Case: WIN
    COL: 1.125"
    RMR, 115gr, FMJRN, CFEpistol, 5.5gr, FED100M
    Average: 1130
    ES: 36
    SD: 16.6
    Force: 326
    PF: 129
    Velocities: 1148, 1116, 1146, 1112, 1128
    Grouping @ 15yd: 1.52"
    Test Date: 03/05/2021

    9mm, SP2022, 3.9"
    Case: WIN
    COL: 1.125"
    RMR, 115gr, FMJRN, CFEpistol, 5.6gr, FED100M
    Average: 1154
    ES: 22
    SD: 9
    Force: 340
    PF: 132
    Velocities: 1143, 1165, 1150, 1153, 1162
    Grouping @ 15yd: 1.24"
    Test Date: 03/05/2021

    9mm, SP2022, 3.9"
    Case: WIN
    COL: 1.125"
    RMR, 115gr, FMJRN, CFEpistol, 5.7gr, FED100M
    Average: 1170
    ES: 25
    SD: 11.1
    Force: 349
    PF: 134
    Velocities: 1166, 1161, 1186, 1162, 1179
    Grouping @ 15yd: 2.42"
    Test Date: 03/05/2021


    Load-1456-05_15yd.png
    9mm, SP2022, 3.9"
    Case: WIN
    COL: 1.125"
    RMR, 115gr, FMJRN, CFEpistol, 5.8gr, FED100M
    Average: 1188
    ES: 45
    SD: 16.4
    Force: 360
    PF: 136
    Velocities: 1186, 1192, 1162, 1193, 1207
    Grouping @ 15yd: 0.85"
    Test Date: 03/05/2021
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2021
  19. vaalpens

    vaalpens Member

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    The last set of loads I tested were the W244 loads. Accuracy was not as good as with PowerPistol and CFE Pistol, but it seems there is a possibility of better accuracy, with the higher charges. W244 will have to be pushed a bit more also if you want to make Power factor.

    Following are the test results, with a picture of the most accurate load for W244. The last two loads were not as accurate, but each one had a single flyer, which could have been me. They will definitely be retested.

    Target was at 15 yards. Test was done using a rest and scope.

    9mm, SP2022, 3.9"
    Case: WIN
    COL: 1.125"
    RMR, 115gr, FMJRN, W244, 4.2gr, FED100M
    Average: 1002
    ES: 39
    SD: 15.6
    Force: 256
    PF: 115
    Velocities: 1028, 1000, 989, 991, 1002
    Grouping @ 15yd: 2.3"
    Test Date: 03/05/2021

    9mm, SP2022, 3.9"
    Case: WIN
    COL: 1.125"
    RMR, 115gr, FMJRN, W244, 4.3gr, FED100M
    Average: 1032
    ES: 22
    SD: 8.8
    Force: 272
    PF: 118
    Velocities: 1037, 1031, 1018, 1037, 1040
    Grouping @ 15yd: 1.47"
    Test Date: 03/05/2021

    9mm, SP2022, 3.9"
    Case: WIN
    COL: 1.125"
    RMR, 115gr, FMJRN, W244, 4.4gr, FED100M
    Average: 1055
    ES: 16
    SD: 6
    Force: 284
    PF: 121
    Velocities: 1055, 1052, 1056, 1049, 1065
    Grouping @ 15yd: 3.12"
    Test Date: 03/05/2021


    Load-1460-05_15yd.png
    9mm, SP2022, 3.9"
    Case: WIN
    COL: 1.125"
    RMR, 115gr, FMJRN, W244, 4.5gr, FED100M
    Average: 1068
    ES: 11
    SD: 5.1
    Force: 291
    PF: 122
    Velocities: 1064, 1063, 1073, 1067, 1074
    Grouping @ 15yd: 1.38"
    Test Date: 03/05/2021

    9mm, SP2022, 3.9"
    Case: WIN
    COL: 1.125"
    RMR, 115gr, FMJRN, W244, 4.6gr, FED100M
    Average: 1097
    ES: 18
    SD: 7.6
    Force: 307
    PF: 126
    Velocities: 1103, 1086, 1104, 1093, 1100
    Grouping @ 15yd: 1.5"
    Test Date: 03/05/2021

    9mm, SP2022, 3.9"
    Case: WIN
    COL: 1.125"
    RMR, 115gr, FMJRN, W244, 4.7gr, FED100M
    Average: 1103
    ES: 22
    SD: 9.4
    Force: 311
    PF: 126
    Velocities: 1099, 1096, 1095, 1117, 1108
    Grouping @ 15yd: 1.45"
    Test Date: 03/05/2021
     
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  20. vaalpens

    vaalpens Member

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    Started with my next round of loads for the RMR, 115gr, FMJRN evaluation.

    I obviously like PowerPistol in 9mm, so I decided to start with 5.9gr, and also do a few loads below it. This should confirm if I have a good load at 5.9gr, and also show the accuracy below 5.9gr. Hopefully I will be able to test these load in a couple of weeks. For now I am also planning some Titegroup loads, probably from 4.2gr to 4.7gr (6 different loads).

    Loaded these up last night. Used my phone for the scale again, and I think it works great for what I do:
    IMG_1979.JPG
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2021
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  21. Dudedog
    • Contributing Member

    Dudedog Contributing Member

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    Had a chance to do some testing but it got cut short.
    Test gun Sig P226 Dark Elite 4.4" barrel
    Mixed range brass, S+B SP
    Charges as thrown after setting measure
    (Lee Autodrum)

    RMR 115gr RN OAL 1.125


    4.3gr W244
    String: 3

    Date: 3/20/2021
    Time: 12:02:41 PM
    Grains: 115
    Hi Vel: 1111
    Low Vel: 1061
    Ave Vel: 1087.2
    Ext Spread: 50
    Std Dev: 17.9

    Velocity Power Factor Ft/Lbs
    1111 127.765 315.157
    1061 122.01 287.53
    1085 124.775 300.579
    1087 125.005 301.688
    1092 125.58 304.47

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    4.6 gr W244
    String: 2
    Date: 3/20/2021
    Time: 12:00:59 PM
    Grains: 115
    Hi Vel: 1127
    Low Vel: 1092
    Ave Vel: 1111.4
    Ext Spread: 35
    Std Dev: 13.6

    Velocity Power Factor Ft/Lbs
    1092 125.58 304.47
    1117 128.455 318.571
    1104 126.96 311.199
    1117 128.455 318.571
    1127 129.605 324.3

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    5.6gr BE86
    String: 2
    Date: 3/20/2021
    Time: 12:11:04 PM
    Grains: 115
    Hi Vel: 1211
    Low Vel: 1162
    Ave Vel: 1184.2
    Ext Spread: 49
    Std Dev: 17.8

    Velocity Power Factor Ft/Lbs
    1162 133.63 344.756
    1211 139.265 374.445
    1187 136.505 359.75
    1184 136.16 357.934
    1177 135.355 353.714

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    5.9 gr BE86
    String: 3
    Date: 3/20/2021
    Time: 12:12:15 PM
    Grains: 115
    Hi Vel: 1231
    Low Vel: 1209
    Ave Vel: 1220.6
    Ext Spread: 22
    Std Dev: 13

    Velocity Power Factor Ft/Lbs
    1204 138.46 370.128
    1231 141.565 386.915
    1231 141.565 386.915
    1228 141.22 385.031
    1209 139.035 373.209

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    CFE-P 5.5
    String: 1
    Date: 3/20/2021
    Time: 12:08:43 PM
    Grains: 115
    Hi Vel: 1176
    Low Vel: 1157
    Ave Vel: 1167.6
    Ext Spread: 19
    Std Dev: 7.9 (good SD+ES here for mixed brass and thrown charges)

    Velocity Power Factor Ft/Lbs
    1175 135.125 352.513
    1165 133.975 346.538
    1157 133.055 341.795
    1165 133.975 346.538
    1176 135.24 353.113

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Silhouette 5.4
    String: 6
    Date: 3/20/2021
    Time: 12:17:47 PM
    Grains: 115
    Hi Vel: 1139
    Low Vel: 1111
    Ave Vel: 1122.6
    Ext Spread: 28
    Std Dev: 16.3

    Velocity Power Factor Ft/Lbs
    1139 130.985 331.243
    1111 127.76 315.269
    1139 130.985 331.243
    1103 126.845 310.635
    1121 128.915 320.856

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Silhouette 5.8
    String: 7
    Date: 3/20/2021
    Time: 12:19:06 PM
    Grains: 115
    Hi Vel: 1174
    Low Vel: 1143
    Ave Vel: 1165
    Ext Spread: 52
    Std Dev: 20.58

    Velocity Power Factor Ft/Lbs
    1143 131.445 333.574
    1163 133.745 345.35
    1195 137.425 364.616
    1174 135.01 351.913
    1150 132.25 337.79

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    WSF 5.2
    String: 4
    Date: 3/20/2021
    Time: 12:13:55 PM
    Grains: 115
    Hi Vel: 1185
    Low Vel: 1164
    Ave Vel: 1176
    Ext Spread: 21
    Std Dev: 9.8

    Velocity Power Factor Ft/Lbs
    1185 136.275 358.539
    1164 133.86 345.944
    1184 136.16 357.934
    1167 134.205 347.729
    1180 135.7 355.52

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    WSF 5.5
    String: 5
    Date: 3/20/2021
    Time: 12:16:19 PM
    Grains: 115
    Hi Vel: 1265
    Low Vel: 1241
    Ave Vel: 1255
    Ext Spread: 24
    Std Dev: 10.4

    Velocity Power Factor Ft/Lbs
    1265 145.475 408.583
    1241 142.715 393.227
    1247 143.405 397.038
    1261 145.015 406.003
    1261 145.015 406.003
    :eek:
    Primers on all looked fine no flattening
    Hodgdon lists this for WSF
    115 GR. JHP Winchester WSF .355" 1.169" 5.2 1095 28,700 PSI 5.7 1165 32,100 PSI

    So with a different bullet and a longer OAL they show a MAX of 5.7 @1165 fps
    This would lead me to believe the 5.5gr load was into +P pressures (maybe over)

    I didn't have a chance to chrono the CFE-P 5.7 load or test for accuracy because of rain.
    (70% cloud cover and three of them stopped right over my head and decided to rain on me, I figured I should take that as a sign to leave before I got struck by lightning!)

    Will try to do an accuracy test next range trip.
     
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  22. Frulk

    Frulk Member

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    Vaalpens ...Maybe it was mentioned in a previous reply but what 9mm are you shooting that’s ‘scoped’?
     
  23. vaalpens

    vaalpens Member

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    I am currently shooting a SIG SP2022 with a scope brace. Here is a picture of the brace mounted on my P229.
    IMG_20170827_121054648.png

    The P229 has the SIG rail, not the same as the picatinny rail. The scope mount is a tight fit on the P229, but not as tight on my SP2022 with a picatinny rail, which maybe explains why I have a tough time finding real accurate loads with my SP2022.
     
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  24. vaalpens

    vaalpens Member

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    Dudedog,

    Thanks for taking the time to test the loads and sharing your load results.

    Do you think you will stick with the 1.125COL, or are you planning an adjustment?

    It seems that your 4.4" barrel makes a big difference in velocity over my 3.9" barrel. With most your loads you make minor easily, where with my 3.9" barrel. It takes a bit more.

    Your WSF load at 5.5gr resulted in some high velocities. The Hodgdon velocity is not even close to it, so they must have really loaded their FMJ load with a COL of 1.169". That doesn't leave a lot of bullet in the case if you load it to 1.169".

    Was there any particular load you liked?
     
  25. Dudedog
    • Contributing Member

    Dudedog Contributing Member

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    Since I didn't have a chance to check accuracy due to rain I don't really have a favorite.
    When I shoot over the chrono I just concentrate on getting them over the chrono (and not into it:D)
    Then I shoot for accuracy later.
    5.4 for Silhouette felt softest but they all felt close except for 5.5 of WSF which had more recoil. (which the vels reflect)

    Looking forward to doing the accuracy test.
     
    kalielkslayer likes this.
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