Picking an MA or a dojo

[phoglund]

I've enjoyed reading the OP and the responses. It's good to read the intelligent and well thought out ideas on the subject. I agree with mercop's ideas. His advice parallels what I tell people when I get the same question. The responses have also been thoughtful with useful information.

Too many discussions of MA degenerates into posturing and silly claims of invincibility.

 

[sidheshooter]

sidheshooter, Yes it is Roseberry's and Shihan is still teaching us the basics! Have you trained with him?

Early in my training I didn't realize how fortunate I was until I started meeting folks from all over who hold him in such high regard!

Awesome! Only one guy could have fit the description you posted...

I have trained under Shihan J.R., but only in the weeks when he would visit the NW. His senior student in the 80s and 90s was a Navy commander named Dascenzo; my sensei. My dan ranking is with the sho rei shobu kan org. That Roseberry gentleman is still one of my all-time heroes. Small world, and all that.

 

[gunzee]

If it's going to do you any good, you'll have to get REALLY fit, and it will take hundreds of hours. The so called "flying" kicks are to be used at the legs, to get in and get out, vs weapons and multiple attackers. What the dojos here don't show you is that first you fling something in their face, then you jump. Your hat, change, inkpen, eyeglasses, etc will all work. I once won an encounter by tossing my upper denture at a guy, then kicked him in the leg. Conditions were such as to preclude having much else, and also, I couldn't risk doing much damage to the guy, nor could I risk it just being a fistfight.

 

[Al Thompson]

you'll have to get REALLY fit

Simply incorrect. Buddy of mine was very unfit (medical issues) and dangerous as a water moccasin.

 

[gunzee]

I doubt that very much. Maybe if you let him START within arm's reach, and if he has you cornered.

 

[Al Thompson]

Well, based on your other posts, I'm grateful that you doubt me.

Lets look at your initial statement that taking MA is a waste of time due to fitness considerations. You appeared to view that from the defenders role and now you seem to think that my buddy in the role of an aggressor would be useless. Well, duh, last time I checked you had to close to someone to punch them.

Welcome to my ignore list.

 

[MikeNice]

Gunzee, I wouldn't doubt it at all. My dad and uncle have both went through multiple back surgerys. Both actually qualify for Social Security because of various health ailments. I'm less than half of either man's age and wouldn't dare try to fight them.

I've seen my uncle literally side kick a guy out the door at a fast food restraunt.

I've also seen my dad take a pipe wrench from a guy in his twentys. My dad went out and told the guy he needed to get in his truck and leave my grandma's house. (The guy was there with my cousin and he caught the cousin stealing pills.) The guy was leaning over the truck bed. He swung around with the wrench in hand. Before it even got close, my dad disarmed the guy and had him laying face down.

At the time my dad was rated at 60% disabled in his back, 20% in his left knee, and 30% in his neck. He hasn't been able to hold a job in probably seven years because of his ailments. Yet he still can defend himself as well if not better than most people I know.

 

[Ghost Dog]

The world keeps getting smaller.

Sidheshooter you said "a Navy commander named Dascenzo; my sensei." I've trained under him at our annual conventions held here every June. He inspired me to begin training in Iaido. He also taught this unusual meditation while ringing bells that I'll always remember!

There has to be substance when your name translates to "The School of Courtesy and Manners"

If your ever in NE the welcome mats out.

G D

 

[GojuBrian]

I'm blessed enough to have my own home dojo. I call it 144:1

Fitness is always a plus. Yes, be in as good as shape s you possibly can for self defense and heath reasons. Never underestimate someone who you deem not to be fit.

Ever see Big Country Nelson?

 

[Ole Coot]

Krav Maga, it works. Simple is best and martial arts are all sport oriented and belt driven by "strip mall masters". Most of the crap can't be used on the street and I know for a fact it is a waste in real world combat. A good start is WWII combat and Canadian combato and a good starting point is to take every illegal strike in any contact sport and concentrate on that. Remember those tough MMA fighters who fold with a finger in the eye? Well flip one out and I guarantee the will is gone and only a fool will fight without the objective of killing, crippling or eliminating any threat.

 

[themachine]

Nice setup GojuBrian. I like the 144:1... that's good stuff.

IMO the effectiveness of a MA depends more on the teacher and students translation of that MA. You can take a "softer" MA like Aikido but with a practitioner who's base is "street" fighting... now that MA has become street applicable (in his hands). On the other hand you can have another student (or teacher) that thinks that their black belt in Aikido makes them invincible but when confronted on the street with no rules or choreographed movements, well... you get the picture.

 

[GojuBrian]

@ themachine , thank you sir. I enjoy having it and having friends over for good training. My kids love to play wrestle and do martial arts in there as well.

@ ol coot,

Krav Maga, it works. Simple is best and martial arts are all sport oriented and belt driven by "strip mall masters". Most of the crap can't be used on the street and I know for a fact it is a waste in real world combat. A good start is WWII combat and Canadian combato and a good starting point is to take every illegal strike in any contact sport and concentrate on that. Remember those tough MMA fighters who fold with a finger in the eye? Well flip one out and I guarantee the will is gone and only a fool will fight without the objective of killing, crippling or eliminating any threat.

You paint with a pretty wide brush. Not all of anything is anything, just like not all taurus are junk, not all 1911's are the bees knees.

Call me a fool, but I have stopped threats without sending them to the hospital or the morgue. The escalation of violence depends on the person attacking. I'm not going to smash a drunk guys asophogus just because he bumped and pushed me wanting to fight. I'm not going to sissy kick a guy who pulls a knife on me wanting my wallet either.

Martial arts effectiveness is solely dependant on the person behind the art, no matter what it is. I started out 22yrs ago wanting to be the guy who could whip 3 or 4 bad dudes in a dark alley. I trained hard, was hit hard, and hit people hard, everything was all go (hard) and no ju (soft). I picked up the ju later and used it to improve, but I still had pretty much the same goal.
Now, I don't train to be the d34dli3st on th3 str33t, but because I enjoy what I do. Training should be enjoyable, it better be, or you won't be doing it long.

 

[Diggers]

Timely thread. I just went to my first Aikido class to day. Long road to good for sure...however I was surprised how "hard" of an art it was....not as passive as I have read. Interesting.

I've been looking at Krav Maga too mostly for the striking aspect of it. I almost enrolled in a class here a couple of weeks ago but the pics they had posted of the training kind of turned me off to it for some reason. It seemed a lot of the training was designed to be physically uncomfortable (environmental mostly) more than focus on technique. I wasn't interested in spending my time and money on that kind of training. (I've done the "its uncomfortable but I will overcome" thing before, thanks I'm good.)

Any how I'm still looking.

I did read that Mcdojo article a while back when I was looking for a jujutsu dojo. Great info there. The part that rang most true to me is the tip to find a dojo that isn't a business. i.e. it's not the way the instructor makes a living. The main instructor at the new Aikido dojo I'm going to makes a living as a nurse, a major reason as to why I decided to train there.

 

[themachine]

Yeah, you definitely have to look out for the Mcdojo (there's far too many). Although I do enjoy the history and cultures that martial arts come from, I take MA for the physical and SD aspects of them.

@ diggers: Are you looking for traditional Jujustu or BJJ? Both are great and BJJ is fairly easy to find since MMA has really grown in popularity. Traditional jujutsu is a great MA and very well rounded IF you can find a good place to train at.

IMO krav isn't the way to go if you want to supplement in striking with your Aikido. Although it has it's benefits it doesn't come close to other MA in regards to it's striking (technique, range, timing, etc...). Krav does good in the aggression category though. I however don't need someone to teach me that though when I need it, it's there

Everyone has to determine their goals and after that research, research, research. Find what fits the bill and then go for it!

 

[shockwave]

Ask yourself how long do I have until I need to defend my life?

The first time I saw an Iron Palm breaking demonstration, I decided right then and there that I would acquire that skill. The standard program is about 3 years. So I got the equipment and worked with an instructor and did that. Martial arts can require a significant investment in time and effort, but the result you get from that are abilities that other people do not and cannot have.

Personally, I think Krav Maga is just outstanding and anybody in search of good, solid self-defense could certainly do worse, and be hard-pressed to do better. It's basic, functional, positive training. But it must be noted that Krav is something that anybody can do. It's what an average person with reasonable fitness and willpower can accomplish.

The kinds of things that a karate black belt or Aikido practitioner or kung fu expert can do are way beyond that. The abilities you can develop if you put years of constant, daily practice into something are not available from a DVD. Some things are not "tricks," or techniques you can get from a seminar. And if you want that kind of skill, then you start down the road and you keep walking until you get there.

It's not about time. You start, and you apply yourself, and if you stay committed, then maybe someday you'll get to where you want to be.

 

[mustangjoey]

Ever think of Muay Thai kickboxing? A very good martial art too. I was training that and BJJ for about a year, (two instructors in the same dojo). They ended up clashing about a year ago because they couldn't agree on things, so Muay Thai is gone and its basically just BJJ for the last year. So I've stayed with that, but Id love to get the kickboxing back. Anyways, just another martial art to throw in the mix.

As for picking a dojo, a huge thing for me was the answers I got when I asked about different situations. Since alot of fights end up on the ground I would ask what they would do in certain situations. And the second an instructor said something along the lines of "a karate master doesn't end up in that position" that was it for me. I need to train somewhere that can be realistic and teach you what to do in ANY situation. Not just on our feet.

 

[sidheshooter]

There has to be substance when your name translates to "The School of Courtesy and Manners"

If your ever in NE the welcome mats out.

"and the martial way..."

Right back at you, GD, if you get out west.

 

[JShirley]

The path is the destination. You may get closer to where you want to be, but you never "arrive".

 

[Diggers]

themachine I was doing traditional jujustu for just a few months before the place I was training had a few issues and seemed to kinda fall apart. So I decided to go the Aikido route (same vein I guess).

I had class tonight, was in an odd position lost my balance and jammed my thumb. Its a little swollen now, putting the ice pack on it. :banghead: Found out one instructor there teaches jujustu also and one night blends it with Aikido..interesting.

 

[Danneskjold]

From my experience, I would do boxing, Krav Maga, and Wing Chun. They are all very quick, no BS threat stoppers. It is also easy to work a pistol or a knife into boxing technique, once you have it pretty well down.

I doubt that very much. Maybe if you let him START within arm's reach, and if he has you cornered.

I know where your coming from, but I am calling BS on this. The goal for any practical hand to hand system should be to quickly reduce the threat; great endurance isn't totally necessary here. If the guy mentioned above were to be attacked by the local track star, things probably would not go well for the track star. Don't mess around with a bunch of fancy grappling and holds... take his ass down and get the hell out of there.

 

[themachine]

diggers one instructor I have teaches aikijustu, sounds like what you'll learn there will be very similar. I've enjoyed that dimension to my training very much. Originally it was a combative art so if you've got a good instructor then you should really benefit from it.

Another system I enjoy is Jeet Kune Do. Seems like many people aren't familiar with it these days but it was designed for street combat and not for sports or show. What you see in Bruce Lee's movies was for the camera but he understood what was good for the movies vs what really works in the street. Like aikijutsu it's hard to find a good instructor. Since MMA has gotten so popular you can find muay thai, kick boxing, bjj much easier and those are solid. Most arts have something to offer though. Some systems that incorporate weapons defense/offense are krav, jujutsu, aikido/aikijutsu, wing chun, jkd, etc... Others like muay thai, bjj, judo, etc... really don't (maybe in some schools but I haven't found any) but are still brutal and can be really street effective.

Again, it just depends what you want out of MA. I try to take almost anything I come across (or can afford). Like JShirley said "you never arrive". I want to always keep learning!

 

[MikeNice]

For those interested in Jeet Kune Do, remember it is the original mixed martial art system. It was never intended to be a set style that is rigidly ahered to. It is about mixing bits and pieces that work for you. Bruce Lee was more concerned with keeping things simple, fast, and effective. It is about cutting out the unnecessary rituals and movements to find only what works for you.

In Bruce Lee's own words,

I have not invented a "new style," composite, modified or otherwise that is set within distinct form as apart from "this" method or "that" method. On the contrary, I hope to free my followers from clinging to styles, patterns, or molds... Finally, a Jeet Kune Do man who says Jeet Kune Do is exclusively Jeet Kune Do is simply not with it. He is still hung up on his self-closing resistance.... Again let me remind you Jeet Kune Do is just a name used, a boat to get one across, and once across it is to be discarded and not to be carried on one's back.

JKD is about learning efficiency, directness, and simplicity. JKD is about learning the philosophy to maximize combat effectiveness. If somebody tells you they are teaching Jeet Kune Do as Bruce Lee taught (Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do) they are missing the true point of Jeet Kune Do and may very well be a McDojo or self promoting.

When looking in to Jeet Kune Do training you have to be very careful. There are some out there that are scammers. Then there are those that believe they are teaching the right thing, but have turned the message upside down. They believe the static form as taught by Bruce Lee is the true way. That is a direct contradiction of the mans words, and the goal of Jeet Kune Do.

 

[themachine]

Well said MikeNice, couldn't have described it better myself. My instructor pretty much said the same thing when I went for my first demo class. It's a good indicator of someone who knows what they're talking about and will help you grow as a martial artist.

 

[Deaf Smith]

If it's going to do you any good, you'll have to get REALLY fit, and it will take hundreds of hours. The so called "flying" kicks are to be used at the legs, to get in and get out, vs weapons and multiple attackers. What the dojos here don't show you is that first you fling something in their face, then you jump. Your hat, change, inkpen, eyeglasses, etc will all work. I once won an encounter by tossing my upper denture at a guy, then kicked him in the leg. Conditions were such as to preclude having much else, and also, I couldn't risk doing much damage to the guy, nor could I risk it just being a fistfight.

Hey Melvin, I mean Gunkid, how is it going?

Did you use those bicycle kicks in prison much?

Deaf

 

[Cesiumsponge]

A lot of McDojos today promote themselves by guaranteeing ranks and belts and do showy things like break boards or do flying back kicks for the sole purpose of wowing customers. I'm sure we here do our research and avoid these types of places. There are a lot of good schools out there and it ends up being something that has to interest you because you're paying for it, and you have to do the research to see if it can meet your goals in a particular quantity of time. Some arts take longer to master than others. If you're looking for the status of a belt, then you're probably in it for the wrong reason. "Black belt" seems to be some sort of end goal for most folks but I'm sure those who are practitioners will tell you "black belt" means you've simply reached proficiency and still have a long way to go. In my opinion, tournaments and sportsmanship aren't useful skills or experiences on street survival.

As a result of my own particular research, I settled on the combatives training system because it has no sporting purposes at all (which is a big turn off for a lot of folks). I'm currently learning from a practitioner of American Combato. A lot of emphasis is put on the same Jeff Cooperisms of a good firearms school. He has trained in Korean and Japanese Aikido as well and some of that has rubbed off on me. Doesn't charge me a dime either and dedicates his knowledge and time to me so there is definitely no profit motive in my particular situation.

Keep in mind we all age so we lose speed, power, finesse, and endurance so some of the raw power in certain types of martial arts or fighting systems might become less effective as we age. Aikido and similar arts seem to be something that you can continue to progress on as you lose the aforementioned properties of your body. My own two cents.