pink pistols (activist group)

[hso]

Jerry,

Check the news. There are GOP officials in more than one state refusing to issue marriage licenses to same sex couples. More than just that, the only win for the the LGBT folks is the marriage decision. There are plenty of rights and privileges that you and your spouse would have in one state that another state won't recognize or grant if you were same sex. This isn't as simple as whether or not some clerk in TX is told they don't have to issue marriage licenses regardless of the SCOTUS decision. The heart attack you have in TX would be treated but your same sex partner may not be allowed to visit while you're in ICU since he might not be recognized as your spouse even if the marriage was legally filed in TN. And if, god forbid, you died your spouse would be able to take you home to family, but not if they were same sex. There's a lot of details to still work through and a lot of people who refuse to do so and we'll see more decisions in the courts to make them happen. All of that is why WE in the shooting community need to working with ALL 2A supporters.

 

[old lady new shooter]

Jerry,

Check the news. There are GOP officials in more than one state refusing to issue marriage licenses to same sex couples. More than just that, the only win for the the LGBT folks is the marriage decision. There are plenty of rights and privileges that you and your spouse would have in one state that another state won't recognize or grant if you were same sex. This isn't as simple as whether or not some clerk in TX is told they don't have to issue marriage licenses regardless of the SCOTUS decision. The heart attack you have in TX would be treated but your same sex partner may not be allowed to visit while you're in ICU since he might not be recognized as your spouse even if the marriage was legally filed in TN. And if, god forbid, you died your spouse would be able to take you home to family, but not if they were same sex. There's a lot of details to still work through and a lot of people who refuse to do so and we'll see more decisions in the courts to make them happen. All of that is why WE in the shooting community need to working with ALL 2A supporters.

I hope Frank will weigh in on the legal points you are asserting, but to me it seems that once people of the same gender have to be recognized as married in the eyes of the law as the new decision mandates, then all benefits applicable to married people would automatically apply to them.

I personally have no interest whatsoever in what consenting adults do in the privacy of their bedroom. However, where the discussion of same-sex marriage has gotten muddled IMO is that there is a difference between saying "OK, it's legal for two people of the same gender to get married just like two people of opposite genders", vs forcing people whose religion forbids this to assist in the ceremonies. This is the difference between swinging your arm in the air vs swinging your arm so your fist connects with another person's face. Up until now the latter has been universally agreed to not be OK. Many gun owners like to say "You don't like guns? OK, you don't have to have one.", I don't understand why this is different -- if two men want to marry each other, why go looking specifically for a bakery owned by Evangelicals to order the cake? It's not like people whose religion forbids same-sex marriage are showing up at same-sex weddings and trying to disrupt the proceedings, they just don't want to participate. The First Amendment guarantees freedom of religion, but the left is basically saying that only means what color robes the choir wears, not how a person is supposed to live their life.

 

[old lady new shooter]

Jerry,

Check the news. There are GOP officials in more than one state refusing to issue marriage licenses to same sex couples. More than just that, the only win for the the LGBT folks is the marriage decision. There are plenty of rights and privileges that you and your spouse would have in one state that another state won't recognize or grant if you were same sex. This isn't as simple as whether or not some clerk in TX is told they don't have to issue marriage licenses regardless of the SCOTUS decision. The heart attack you have in TX would be treated but your same sex partner may not be allowed to visit while you're in ICU since he might not be recognized as your spouse even if the marriage was legally filed in TN. And if, god forbid, you died your spouse would be able to take you home to family, but not if they were same sex. There's a lot of details to still work through and a lot of people who refuse to do so and we'll see more decisions in the courts to make them happen. All of that is why WE in the shooting community need to working with ALL 2A supporters.

"There are GOP officials in more than one state refusing to issue marriage licenses to same sex couples."

Um, no. In both Texas and Louisiana the orders said an individual whose job is issuing marriage licenses but whose religion forbids same-sex marriage does not PERSONALLY have to issue a license to a same-sex couple PROVIDED THERE IS SOMEONE ELSE IN THE OFFICE WHO WILL DO SO. And nothing in the orders said this rule applies to persons belonging to a particular political party.

That said, I posted earlier that I think what the Pink Pistols are doing is great and that all Second Amendment supporters should be happy to have them as allies. I just don't think welcoming all Second Amendment supporters has to mean agreeing to emasculate the First Amendment.

 

[R.W.Dale]

Children born out of wedlock is a sin. Thus far I've not heard of one of these "highly religious" officials refusing to officiate such marriages?

Sin is sin is sin, cherry picking a particular sin to take a stand against isn't religious convictions it's pure prejudice.

 

[hso]

orcing people whose religion forbids this to assist in the ceremonies. This is the difference between swinging your arm in the air vs swinging your arm so your fist connects with another person's face. Up until now the latter has been universally agreed to not be OK. Many gun owners like to say "You don't like guns? OK, you don't have to have one.", I don't understand why this is different -- if two men want to marry each other, why go looking specifically for a bakery owned by Evangelicals to order the cake? It's not like people whose religion forbids same-sex marriage are showing up at same-sex weddings and trying to disrupt the proceedings, they just don't want to participate.

Pretty much not on topic for here, but none of it is factually accurate either. The press has misrepresented individuals refusing to serve same sex couples as the same as government being required to be blind to the sex of the individuals. Remember that the rights under the law are transferrable from state to state as guaranteed by the BOR. There's no right to a cake or a religious ceremony, but the beliefs of the employees of the government don't trump the government's responsibility to serve all citizens as required in one state or the other. Same as our carry permits or rights to own a firearm. The fervent belief of an individual clerk has no relevance when it comes to recognizing our ownership or carry rights from another state as a government official. They act as an agent of the government carrying out the government's business and not as individuals. If the government office can accommodate a citizens or citizens without delay by having one or another individual employee carry out the business of the government then an argument can be made it doesn't matter which employee carries it out, BUT if any delay would take place (come back tomorrow and we'll have someone here that will work with blacks/indians/gays/jews) then the office has no choice but to perform the service. We shout "A right delayed is a right denied", but do we only mean it when it comes to us?

But none of that is relevant to the discussion, except to perhaps even more clearly illustrate why LGBT community members aren't going to just do a happy dance and forget the offenses of the recent past and those being carried out even now.

What is relevant is that Pink Pistols and any LGBT 2A advocates would be a great asset in blocking off one of the avenues of attack the Antis have against us in the perception conflict front on the battle for the 2A. The NRA has specifically incorporated spokespersons in recent years that appeal to a broader demographic than "old white guys". At the NRA Colin Noir, Billy Johnson and Haley Heath were celebrities and each were brought onboard with NRA because of their appeal to blacks, millennials, and mothers all demographics the Antis have manipulated. The broadening the base to counter the Anti propaganda machine only helps us.

 

[JERRY]

there is a county in Alabama that has stopped issuing marriage licenses to anybody. a few months back when this issue was back and forth in local, state, and federal courts, a probate judge simply got out of the marriage business and stopped issuing the license, period. that way no one could claim special treatment or exclusion because of sexual preferences....

 

[hso]

Folks,

We're drifting into the larger social and political issues outside of the 2A. Remember that Activism Discussion is focused on RKBA issues only. Since the Pink Pistols used to be a more visible presence in the 2A struggle and was a great ally in countering the Anti arguments, but the seem to have gone a bit quiet, how do we help more people in the LGBT community find out about them and how do we help more people in the LGBT community help the 2A movement the way the Pink Pistols did, visibly and vocally. "Vote" isn't activism. Get out the vote is, but even more important is getting LGBT voters to be vocal and visible in their support of the 2A. Remember while our struggle is about arms it isn't an armed struggle and the other elements of winning any conflict are winning the PR "war". The Antis have powerful people with money who are experienced in media campaigns and who know how to use that sort of power to sway the public. We need to be more than right, we need to be smart about winning as many people as possible to support our cause and if they won't support us, ignore the Antis.

 

[DeepSouth]

I can agree with the pink pistols on one issue and disagree on another, I don't see the complication. I agree with very few people, if any, on everything. I can introduce people to shooting regardless of their, gender, race, sexual orientation, political leanings, hair color, or anything else. I really don't see the problem.

Sin is sin is sin, cherry picking a particular sin to take a stand against isn't religious convictions it's pure prejudice.

Its not always cherry picking, certain issues are closer to ones heart than others therefore they tend to take a stand (or at least a stronger stand) against those issues.
I'd imagine almost everyone in the US takes a harder stand against murder than, well, almost anything else.

 

[R.W.Dale]

It's cherry picking and those folks need to do some serious soul searching if they plan to get into the kingdom of heaven.

What's close to YOUR heart doesn't matter. To god children out of wedlock, gay marriage, murder, eating too much and having meat on the sabbath is THE EXACT SAME. So let's dispense with the contrived religious outrage here.

What's hilarious here is you have people using religion as an excuse not to do their job and getting applauded by THE EXACT SAME PEOPLE as the ones screaming for zero tolerance for Muslim women not wanting to forgo the head coverings as a condition for employment.

And we wonder why younger generations don't take us conservatives seriously?

 

[hso]

Folks,

As we've often noted keeping discussions going is challenging when we get onto the broader issues and loose focus JUST the 2A aspects. We need to remember that or we're going to get far enough off topic to shut this thread down.

Being characterized as a group of angry older white guys by the Antis isn't just something they made up. We need to work harder to include LGBT, Millennials, minorities and women more in the 2A groups and movement and we need to stop blaming them for not being involved since we as a group far too often don't do anything to welcome them and encourage them other than complain they should be coming to us. How we talk reflects on how we think and a lot of how we talk is not welcoming to anyone, much less people not well represented in the 2A advocacy community.

I was at the NRA convention this year and there were plenty of women, but there weren't very many on their own as there were guys on their own. Even fewer minorities and no Pink Pistols representation was telling. How can we expect to guarantee this freedom for all of us if we're insular and if we push growing groups away and how can people take us seriously if we don't make more people welcome by recognizing this isn't just a conservative traditional ideal where we all have to be part of the same group think?