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Pistol Projectiles

Discussion in 'Blackpowder' started by rodwha, Mar 13, 2013.

  1. rodwha

    rodwha Senior Member

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    I intend to carry my Old Army as a backup while hunting with my .50 cal Deerstalker. My main concern is hogs, and I originally bought several of Kaido's 240 grn version of modern conicals.

    My thoughts were that I'd want the flat nosed profile and extra weight for the penetration I'm told I'll need when dealing with the heavier of these guys.

    As I'm considering how it was said by Civil War vets that RB's were much better as man stoppers and conicals for game animals (they were talking of .36 cal projectiles if I'm not mistaken) it got me to thinking that the reason being is that the velocity with the lighter RB's makes it expand more readily, which gives a larger wound cavity, but reduces its ability to penetrate as deep. The conicals, on the other hand, being heavier and slower, wouldn't expand as large, and with the heavier weight, penetrate deeper.

    At close range (<15 yds) would the larger wound be better than deeper penetration? If a RB is a better man stopper wouldn't it do well at close range on an average size hog (<200 lbs)? If I'm being charged by a p*ssed off hog I need it to go down quickly, and assuming the worst it may be more of a point and shoot affair.

    I'm curious as to whether anyone has tested the diameter of the projectile against its penetration. According to the work Duelist did in comparing projectiles and powders I see (using T7) that the modern conical penetrated about twice as far, which is exceptional. Water jugs aren't much like flesh and bone though...

    Who has used RB's in their pistols for hunting? What were your results?
     
  2. Patocazador

    Patocazador Senior Member

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    Big heavy bullets win out every time against big heavy animals.

    Hogs generally won't charge unless you are blocking their escape route or you already superficially wounded them and pi$$ed them off.
     
  3. raa-7

    raa-7 Member

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    I havent used my BP .44 revolver for hunting yet but I would be darn confident to bring it with me Hog hunting for sure and to use my .454 soft lead RB"s on em.Maybe next year I will.Our state has plenty of hogs !
     
  4. woodnbow

    woodnbow Member

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    The shape of a projectile

    also plays into this. The main reason the Keith type bullets work so well is that wide flat point.

    I wondered if it was as effective as old Elmer said it was, even after I'd used them on game, and then I got the die for the SGB. (Small Game Bullet for .22 long rifle.) Basically you place a standard .22 in the die and then file away the round nose from the bullet. The results compared side by side on ground squirrels made a believer out of me. The wide flat point at standard .22 velocities is devasting compared to a round nosed bullet. Much more tissue damage, much larger exit wounds. The heavier weight of the Kaido bullet allows better penetration than a roundball along with the most effective profile available for cap and ball.. my dos centavos...

    http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tips/archive_tips.htm/25

    Not a link to the Hanned tool but here's how you make the SGB for those who might be interested...
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2013
  5. rodwha

    rodwha Senior Member

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    "...or you already superficially wounded them and pi$$ed them off."

    This is my concern. Were I to wound the critter instead of dropping it...

    I'm a meat hunter, and would likely shoot the little ones or the sows. But I can't say I wouldn't like the head of some big shaggy hog with big tusks on my wall, and I don't keep any heads.

    The shape:
    Kaido's bullets are 7-11 BHN, which is a little hard for a cap n ball. I'm not sure how well they would deform. But I'll be trying out some 230 grn bullets that are cast from softer lead (I believe). Being a little lighter they'll go a little faster, and being softer, ought to expand much easier. Maybe these are the better projectile between the 3.

    What do you think?
     
  6. Noz

    Noz Member

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    I'm a bit of a coward where hogs are concerned. I also like the shape of my legs. I would carry the ML rifle for the initial shots. If a hog threatened my body then the 41 magnum with a whole lot of W296 under a wide nose flat point 250 grain would come out for defense.
     
  7. rodwha

    rodwha Senior Member

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    I am too! But not so much that I won't.

    A 255 grn Kaido bullet pushed by 25 grns of Triple 7 produced 920 fps and 479 ft/lbs of energy.

    He reduced his load by just over 15% and didn't give it much compression. I'm using (for now) Kaido's 240 grn version and can get 35 grns of T7 with plenty of compression. I don't have a chronograph, but it ought to be sailing much faster with more energy.

    Not that water jugs behave similarly to flesh and bone, but that tested 255 grn load penetrated 11 one gallon jugs and kept going. Not bad!
     
  8. rodwha

    rodwha Senior Member

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    But I have also heard of people getting passthroughs on deer using RB's from pistols. Probably not connecting with bone though...
     
  9. Patocazador

    Patocazador Senior Member

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    Personally, I wouldn't be that concerned with expansion on a hog, especially a boar. I think penetration is more important when trying to stop one of the shielded brutes .. and shot placement.
     
  10. rodwha

    rodwha Senior Member

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    I'd probably be better served designing boots that'll help me climb trees without using my hands! :D
     
  11. Rattus58

    Rattus58 Member

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    All of my round balls have gone right through every animal I've shot with them, so I don't know what they expanded to. I shot a nice boar with a 530 grain Lyman 577611 that opened up to a silver dollar and I found it under the offside skin (thick). This is a minie so I don't know what that means, but this is the ONLY bullet that ever got trapped in the animal.

    I've shot pigs with a round ball and they don't go anywhere (58) so its hard to guage. My 54's whistle through too, though I've never shot a pig with my 54. I hunt with a 45 caliber shooting 470 grain to 530 grain conicals and they whistle right through deer as did as far out as 123 yards for a 50(.504).

    So, back to pigs. If you've the Kaida bullet why are you even thinking about a round ball?

    Aloha...:cool:)
     
  12. rodwha

    rodwha Senior Member

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    The Kaido bullets are too expensive at $40/100 + shipping.

    My contemplations have been mostly about how well a RB penetrates. RB's tend to mushroom better from what I understand, which, seems to me to be the better projectile to launch at something that wants to chew on my knee cap.

    But how well would a RB from a pistol do if it hits bone? Being light and soft I'm not so sure it'll do all that well. And so these soft 230 grn FN bullets seem like an ideal compromise.

    Kaido's bullets are somewhat hard (7-11 BHN) and being heavy they may not expand much at all. I don't know if it "over penetrates." And by that I mean if this 230 grn bullet will expand and go all the way through isn't it a waste to get no expansion and complete penetration? But I can't claim to really understand all of this. And I've been told many times that you can't look at this in the same light as modern stuff. I don't see this as so different though...
     
  13. rodwha

    rodwha Senior Member

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    Oh, and I'm considering RB's as they are even cheaper and more readily available. If they will more than do the job why bother with a special order bullet?
     
  14. nobody1369

    nobody1369 New Member

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    275 lb boar

    nobody1369
    Member


    Join Date: February 6, 2011
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    Wild Hogs
    Curious , any of you guys shoot wild hogs with your cap and ball?http://youtu.be/AGq3Wslk1S0
    Last edited by nobody1369; October 30, 2012 at 10:46 PM.
     
  15. nobody1369

    nobody1369 New Member

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    Roundball

    30 grains of Goex,.457 ball , shorty Remington.
    Shot at least 6 at similar ranges, that was a wild hog I trapped and fed out for a few. First time he'd seen someone in his pen.
     
  16. Patocazador

    Patocazador Senior Member

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    Not a big one but it is a hog.

    [​IMG]
     
  17. rodwha

    rodwha Senior Member

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    What are the particulars of that event? Range, load, circumstances (hunting or tracking-critter was still and unknowing or on alert/running), etc?
     
  18. kituwa

    kituwa Member

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    I have not shot a hog with a cap n ball before, but i have shot many many of them with centerfire pistols. They are not as hard to kill as many think they are.That thick shield on the bigger boars does not affect bullet penetration much at all from what i have seen.Their vitals are NOT in the same places as a deer though so you have to take that into account.The lungs are higher and more upfront on a hog,if you aim for a lung shot on a hog like you would if it was a deer you prolly wont hit many vitals.With modern centerfire pistols i did find that the bullet types that are highly touted as expanding well for self defense were in fact some of the worse for not opening up, especially in .45 auto.It is hard to find a normal .45 auto bullet that will expand at all on a hog.A .45 super is another story though.I had two custom auto's chamberd for 9x23 that worked outstanding on hogs and deer both.The loads i used in the 9x23 were a near match to the 357 125gr @ 1400fps loads.I had a hot load with a xtp 124gr @ 1250 that i used in a cutom browning high power that worked well too.I shot a good many with a custom ruger blackhawk with a heavy octagon barrel in .45 colt that i used heavy 300gr bullets that of coarse would shoot length wize through a hog. I have shot a good many deer in the past with diffrent cap n ball revolvers and they work well on deer with just a round ball even.More than half of the deer i shot with round ball the ball exited the deer even with just 30gr loads in a 1860 army.The ROA i had was near perfect for shooting deer and i am sure would be great on hogs too.I did have a mold for the ROA that made a 225gr hollow point but cant remember who made that mold,wished i still had it.I will say that a cap n ball with pure lead balls is not comparable with modern bullets. They react completly diffrent than modern jacketed bullets or harder cast bullets on game.They make a far worse wound channel and still seem to penetrate well on deer/hog size animals.I dont think useing harder cast conical or flat base bullets for a cap n ball is going to make it more deadly for most game.A soft lead flat point or hollow point type may work well though. While a walker or ROA may sound super powerfull with a full load they do not turn an animal inside out and even a .454 casul doesnt,,it is mostly just punching a hole through the vitals that make them work and even the round ball seems to do that with out much problems.
     
  19. ThorinNNY

    ThorinNNY Member

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    I retrieved a Minie ball,( nominal size.577 inch )from a critter. The nose had mushroomed to .974 inch ,about 1.6 times it`s nominal size. The ball had been cast from very soft lead, which works best in Civil War type muskets.
     
  20. Patocazador

    Patocazador Senior Member

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    I was sitting in a tree on public land & had already killed 160 lb. sow with my rifle load. A group of 6 of these came by so I let loose with my Old Army at 25 yds. and missed .. and missed again .. and finally broke this one's back at ~35 yds. Climbed down and finished him. That was before I replaced my front sight and my ROA was shooting 11" high at 25 yards. Now it's right on at 35 yds.

    I was shooting 220 conicals with 30 gr. of 3FG that day.
     
  21. Rattus58

    Rattus58 Member

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    If I remember correctly, you sayed that you wanted a backup gun for your 50. You also indicated to my recollection that you were worried about a "charging and Pissed Off" animal/hog ifn my recovering memory serves. If that is your actually envisioned scenario I wouldn't care less how much a Kaido bullet was for several reasons; one is that if you are engaged in the scenario you lead me to vision, you a) aint gonna get many shots off and b) if it actually has you in its sights a .308 might not stop it head on and a calm shot low into the chest might serve better... but again... if its a coming... I'm saying this from memory of having been treed once by such a particularly intended though mortally wounded sow....

    Aloha... :cool:
     
  22. rodwha

    rodwha Senior Member

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    Indeed that was the scenario I had given, and my biggest concern.
    I am strongly considering a RB as I keep finding accounts of it working exceedingly well, and leaving horrific wounds beyond belief while still completely penetrating. That's much of what seems to have been the case during the Civil War.
    I would like to use my pistol as a primary hunting weapon as well, but I've yet to keep my groups small enough (<4") at 25 yds. I often get ~6" with a flier or two opening it up further. This is with the Kaido bullets.
    But I'm still getting accustomed to it. Hopefully I'll improve enough quite soon.
     
  23. rodwha

    rodwha Senior Member

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    Patocazador: I assume you got full penetration with the conical?
    How much and of what sort of powder were you using?
     
  24. Patocazador

    Patocazador Senior Member

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    See above.
     
  25. kituwa

    kituwa Member

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    Rodwah, i think you will do just fine with round balls unless you are shooting really big boars over 200 lbs. If your 4 inch groups at 25 yards is off hand then that is not bad. Just limit your shots to 25 or 30 yards.A shooting stick will help a lot too.I know a lot of people think the sights on most cap n ball revolvers are crude but i actually like the fine sights they have as long as it is fixed to shoot point of aim.They do not work well in low light but even better sights like on a ruger old army suck in low light too.If a person was going to use their revolver a lot to hunt with it would be nice to have a front sight made with a fiber optic insert.I used to have a remington that i made a sight like that for and it worked well.It may be diffrent some places but here in south bama where i hunt pigs it is really thick and a 25 yard shot is normal if not closer.They dont hold still for long though.A quartering away shot is best, just put your ball close in right on the crease of his front leg and low and he wont go far if any.Once you get into some pigs you will be hooked for life,,its great fun.My wife even loves to hog hunt with a handgun.To me, no other gun is better suited for hog hunting than a handgun and a cap n ball is the funest of all.
     

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