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Pistol Projectiles

Discussion in 'Blackpowder' started by rodwha, Mar 13, 2013.

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  1. Dave Markowitz

    Dave Markowitz Member

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    Keep in mind that the conical bullets used in the Civil War had a much different profile than than Kaido's bullets. The bullets used in the 19th Century had an almost pointed profile, rather than the nice, wide meplat of Kaido's design. It makes a difference in terminal effect.
     
  2. MCgunner

    MCgunner Member

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    I'm guessing maybe BP only rules? There are WMAs in Texas where BP only is the rule and having my ROA along for 6 more is a good idea methinks.

    I have tested mine with a full compressed charge of FFFG triple 7 and a 220 grain Lee cast hollow point. It pushed 1300 fps, but by the forth shot, was beginning to pull the bullets far enough out to make cocking a little harder as the bullet nose contacted the forcing cone. I'm not sure what the cure for THAT one would be. I get between 900 and 1000 fps from a full charge of Pyrodex P with that same bullet. Good thing is, that gun is DEADLY accurate and shoots same POA, somehow, with everything I have shot in it. :D

    Yeah, I kinda would prefer my stainless Blackhawk with 300 grain Hornady .451" XTPs moving 1120 fps from a healthy dose of 2400, but hey, rules are rules on a BP only WMA. I've killed several hunting with a .357 magnum, one with a 140 JHP to the head, a small one, so I'm pretty sure the Old Army is enough gun. The question here is the bullet, which I am interested in. I don't trust my HPs to expand, but they probably would work a might better than a round nose.....probably.
     
  3. MCgunner

    MCgunner Member

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    Is that benched or YOU shooting off hand? My gun with a rest will put all my 220 conicals/HPs into 2" or less with ANY load I've tried, even the hot 777 loads. It can do better if you moderate the load, but 2" is good enough for hunting IMHO. I will not take an off hand shot if it's my primary and I'm hunting from a stand or box blind. Even if I were just sitting by a tree, i'd take my shooting sticks or my monopod. Off hand, I can keep it near 4" which is good 'nuf on a charging pig. I've been charged, as someone alluded to, he had been wounded and was NOT happy, in heavy cover. I used a .357 magnum to shoot him, 165 grain cast SWC at 1400 or so fps from a 4" gun fired double action and, let me tell ya, it felt like a 10 ounce target trigger. My adrenalin was up a might. :D That gun was no more accurate, nor could I shoot it any better than my ROA.

    Anyway, if that's a benched group from your ROA, that would rule out those particular bullets for me. I'd rather a hit with round ball than a miss with a heavy SWC, personally.
     
  4. rodwha

    rodwha Member

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    I must despairingly admit that it was rested, though not well. I didn't want to tear up their stuff with the flames so I rested the grip on the table. Not a good rest, but it should have been better than off hand.
    My off hand with RBs are a little better. No fliers either. I assume its me as I found I was pulling in expectation of recoil for some reason. Not sure why. Didn't happen with +P loads in a 1911. Though I suppose the action may have eaten a little of the recoil. Almost seems I adopted it when I shot my 44 mag. That's where I first saw the flinch
     
  5. rodwha

    rodwha Member

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    Those groups were with a max load of 35 grns of 3F T7, but I've since reduced it to 30, but saw no real difference.
    I suppose I ought to be shooting off hand as I can't hunt with it yet. For now it's a sidearm when I hunt.
    And I doubt I'll need it using a .50 cal rifle. But I'd rather be prepared...
     
  6. MCgunner

    MCgunner Member

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    Sounds like a simple case of flinch. Not uncommon and I suspect most of us went through it, know I did when I was learning to shoot magnum revolvers. Concentration of sight alignment and trigger squeeze cured it for me. If you're flinching and you get a hangfire on a cap and ball, you'll KNOW it. :D With T7, the gun has some hefty recoil, magnum class recoil, but it's a big, heavy gun and soaks it up well. The payback is magnum class energy levels on the business end. :D Practice makes perfect. Just shoot it a lot, something you can't do a lot of with 40 bucks per 100 bullets, but you can do if you cast Lee conicals. :D
     
  7. woodnbow

    woodnbow Member

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    You might also try a set of Pachmeyers or Hogues on that old army. The smallish Ruger/Colt style grips are not the best for handling recoil. A good set of Hogue Pau Ferro grips look right smart as well!
     
  8. kwhi43@kc.rr.com

    kwhi43@kc.rr.com Member

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    You can put them on Remington's also.
    0016.gif

    My Ruger with a pair and a 50 yd target. Fired one hand hold standing.

    OldArmyTarget.jpg
     
  9. kituwa

    kituwa Member

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    With a pure lead conical it wont matter how much of a point it has, it will flatten out good at any reasonable hunting distance and 30gr or more powder.But you are right, the Kaido bullet with the big flat nose does do some damage even when hard cast but i think for deer and hogs the Kaio would work much better in most cases if it was just cast with near pure lead.In conventional handguns i like hard cast flat nose bullets better than any hollow point for large cal. handguns.But,,a .45 colt load at 1200fps you cant use soft lead slugs without serious leading,if it were not for that the big flat nose would be sure enough devastating with a soft cast.I know some of the hot loads some are shooting in a cap and ball are over 1200 fps too but with a good lubed wad under the conical or ball or good over bullet lube it usually does not lead the barrel.I guess you could grease up the end of a cylinder full of hot >45 colt, just never though of it before,lol.
     
  10. kituwa

    kituwa Member

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    kwhi,,that is some great groups for 50 yards offhand!
     
  11. rodwha

    rodwha Member

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    "If you're flinching and you get a hangfire on a cap and ball, you'll KNOW it."

    Indeed! And that is exactly what had happened. And so I've been more conscious of my trigger squeeze and relaxing. I've done much better, but I think a part of my problem is a poor rest, and failing eyesight, along with an imperfect handling of the shooting situation. Though I've certainly improved it's not spot on.

    I've been told of a better way to support the gun, which is to rest my forearms instead. I'll be giving that a go soon.
     
  12. woodnbow

    woodnbow Member

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    Nice shooting Kwhi... Rod, I think we should all take lessons here ^^^^ ;-)
     
  13. rodwha

    rodwha Member

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    No kidding!
    Although my targets look much like that...when I get closer!
     
  14. Patocazador

    Patocazador Member

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    Besides flinching another potential cause of poor groups is that some of the bullets with flat meplats are .452 in diameter and recoil causes them to back off the powder load after firing a stout load. It is worse with heavier bullets because they produce more recoil. The lessened pressures that result make the loads act differently. With larger diameter bullets the compression by the loading lever shaves off excess lead and essentially wedges the bullet more firmly in the cylinder's chamber.

    Fouling can also have an effect on accuracy as more shots are fired.
     
  15. kituwa

    kituwa Member

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    Potacazador has a point,part of the problem may well be the bullets moving.Also it seems there can be a lot ofdiffrences in bore and cylinder sizes on diffrent brands of guns or even whithin the same brand but made a diffrent year.I dont like to try and tell someone to hold their gun a certain way or rest it one way or another.Its good to try diffrent methods and just find what way works best for YOU.I cant hit worth squat one handed,i always use both hands and when hunting i use whatever way i can to rest my gun but sometimes you just have to do offhand and thats fine too if the animal is fairly close range. I will say this,in all the years i have shot handguns and helped others with it, the number one thing that will cause flinching and poor shooting is a bad trigger.If you can feel any movement in the trigger before it fires you will almost certainly develope a flinch.I shoot bows a lot and there is something we call target panic when shooting a bow,,this can happen with a handgun too.Its not that much problem when actually hunting though.And,,i have no idea how much experiance you have shooting and i dont want to insult you in any way,,but wear ear protection when you are shooting targets. That loud boom can and will cause flinch not to mention you dont want to have to have the volume turned to max on your TV and your most used word to be "huh?' like i do now.
     
  16. rodwha

    rodwha Member

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    I'm not one to take offense too often.

    I have hunted with modern rifles a fair amount, and I've done fine, though 80 yds was about my longest shot, and I typically used a friend's 270 Win.

    Loud booms don't do much to me. I used to do quite well with a 1911 AMT Hardballer using mostly +P loads, and I could keep them all in the black firing as fast as possible.

    These loads are similar to the 44 mag with standard ammo.

    I think with the 44 mag I used I began trying to compensate for the recoil and would pull, which seems to have carried on into my shooting the Old Army. I found this out with the caps not firing.

    I did notice often that 1 or 2 bullets would creep out under recoil to where it keep the cylinder from rotating. I recently read that Kaido designed his 255 grn bullet especially for the ROA as it is a little larger (.460") than the 240 grn (.456" IIRC).

    I chose the smaller ones as I've heard that harder bullets (his are 7-11 BHN) could stress the loading lever. Being larger too made me decide on the smaller. And Ruger states that .456" (IIRC) is optimal for the Old Army.

    My Ruger's trigger seems good enough. It's not perfect, but it's not bad either.

    I also don't clean it at the range. And I generally began by playing with RB's and Pyrodex before I'd swap to T7 and bullets. This very well could have effected my groups.

    I'll be trying bullets first, and I suppose I ought to give it a quick cleaning between cylinders. I do carry a small water bottle, diluted dish soap, and all of the other gear for field cleaning. May as well use it and see if it helps.

    I had been using 35 grns of 3F T7 with the 240 grn bullet, which was about max. I tried reducing it to 30 grns, but didn't notice much of a difference. But the gun was fouled by then...

    I know I've heard many times how accuracy falls off when dirty. I guess I'm just too used to smokeless and hadn't considered it.
     
  17. kituwa

    kituwa Member

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    Yes those Ruger old armies are great guns and your right, the triggers are not great but sure not bad either.You can get a spring kit for the trigger that helps a lot too without doing a complete trigger job. Just shoot it till it feels natural.Thats they good thing about black powder guns,,you can still afford to shoot em,lol. I may well have some diffrent kinds of grips around here for rugers, i will see if i can find them.I used to do gunsmith work for several gunshops and i keep lots of ruger parts here.I like the ruger bisley grip frames on a blackhawk and i hink they fit on a ROA too.I know i have super blackhawk grip frames and several reg blackhaw frames in both aluminum and steel and i know there is at least one set of ivory blackhawk grips under my bed i saw the other day.I also used to make replacment cylinder pins with a locking setscrew and i saw one of those in a box a few days ago too.I may just have to set my lathe back up so i can keep some of you guys in ROA parts.I used to do a neat custom job on ruger .45 colt blackhawks by putting on the bisley grip frame and hammer and took a section of a old 50 cal octogon barrel and bore it out to fit over the blackhawk barrel.The blackhawk barrels are tapered some though its hard to tell it just looking at them but i bored them out with that taper slightly under size and then heated the sleave till it slipped on and silver soildered it in place.Then i milled out a custom front sight for it and a partially octogon shaped ejector housing to match.The result was a 5 inch barrel that balanced great and looked unique too.You have to remove the barrel to do all that so i always did the cylinder gap closer when i put the barrel back on witch is something most rugers needed to start with.I mostly just did the gunsmith work because i enjoyed it so most times i did not take pay from the gunshops and instead they would give me guns for my work.I used to have so many nice pistols it should have been illeagle,lol.Another thing,,i see a lot of folks here with walkers have probs with the loading lever falling.I have a sheet of teflon that i cut a large washer from that i use in the pivit on the walker loading lever that pretty much cures that especially when combined with fileing the tip of the stock retaining spring just a tad.If anyone wants one they are free, just let me know.
     
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