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piston AR carrier tilt: why no integral rails?

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by Autopistola, Oct 24, 2009.

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  1. Autopistola

    Autopistola Member

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    Excuse my lack of knowledge about the AR system, but it seems if designers want to get rid of carrier tilt, why don't they just design the upper and bolt carrier with integral rails like an FAL?

    edit: ok, now I realize if the bolt carrier had rails it wouldn't be able to enter the buffer tube, so a regular AR lower wouldn't work at all. With a piston and no buffer tube...it's not an AR in any form.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2009
  2. HorseSoldier

    HorseSoldier Member

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    Easier and cheaper not to, would be my guess.
     
  3. kwelz

    kwelz Member

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    Yep you answered your own question.
    While I am not a fan of Piston rifles, the makers have done a good job of keeping them very compatible with standard AR Uppers, lowers, etc. Adding rails to the Bolt Carrier and upper would stop this and make Piston ARs even more pointless than they are now.
     
  4. Coronach

    Coronach Moderator Emeritus

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    As you mentioned in your edit, it would not be a drop-in system onto a stock lower. Can they do a redesign to add rails to the upper and lower? Probably, but I dunno how easy it would be to bridge the gap between upper and lower and then lower and reciever extension. One way or the other, it would be a pretty decent redesign of the AR system, and at some point it's no longer an AR anymore...

    Might be worth it, of course. But while you're at it, you may as well try to redesign it in a way that allows a folding stock...and you may as well redo the upper so that you don't have such a thin op rod and small piston...rapidly you end up with a Sig 556, or something along those lines.

    Mike
     
  5. ScareyH22A

    ScareyH22A Member

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    Someone already has a anti-tilt bolt carrier I believe. Stag maybe?
     
  6. Autopistola

    Autopistola Member

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    I'm more interested in something with short-stroke operation...something that, in function, is like a caliber convertible AR-18 that uses three locking lugs or <7.
     
  7. Avenger29

    Avenger29 Member

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    Many of the piston designs have anti-tilt features to mitigate the wear as much as possible, but non, as far as I am aware, can entirely eliminate it. The best ones it seems wear some and then stop.

    Honestly, that's just what I've picked up in a few of the more technical discussions, as I have not researched gas piston ARs to the level I would if I was the slightest bit interested in purchasing one.

    The way I see it, you get to the point of diminishing returns rapidly when trying to "fix" all of the AR defects that many complain about. It's better to just design a new rifle and do it right from the ground up, while keeping some of the features of the AR rifle if you can/want (i.e., magazines). From what I understand, that's what Magpul did, but the rifles are simply not available. The rifles that are out there, such as the XCR, are lacking. I have not seen a SCAR nor heard any reports from people I trust.

    That's why I am sticking with the standard DI AR, albiet a well built one with quality parts. Until something drastically better comes along, I see no reason to switch, and I see no reason to buy into a "band-aid" solution that is drastically more expensive (you must remember that up until recently, CMMG did not have their gas piston setup and all of the piston ARs were rather expensive).
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2009
  8. fastpat

    fastpat Member

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    CMMG's current system has an anti-tilt carrier.
    CMMG_piston_conv_2-vi.jpg
     
  9. Avenger29

    Avenger29 Member

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    You can't have rails and fit it into the same space if utilizing a standard receiver extension.
     
  10. carbine85

    carbine85 Member

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    I saw a recent patent where Armalite has filed for a short stroke piston and it looks similar to the AR180. Search Google Patents. I suspect Armalite is getting into the game.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2009
  11. Avenger29

    Avenger29 Member

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    You can buy an XCR if you want. Good luck with that.

    Or you can wait until the Masada/ACR comes out.
     
  12. Coronach

    Coronach Moderator Emeritus

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    Yeah, but does it actually eliminate tilt?

    Several makers claim to have done minor redesigns to eliminate tilt, and yet the end users still end up with chewed up buffer tubes. Reduce? Probably. Eliminate? Seemingly, no.

    I dunno.

    Mike
     
  13. DougW

    DougW Member

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    Enough reasons stated here for me to keep shooting and cleaning my Stoner designed rifles. The better mouse trap still hasn't been invented.

    (I think the answer for all the AR15 "issues" is still my L1A1 anyway!)
     
  14. Uncle Mike

    Uncle Mike Member

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    That's the smartest thing anybody has said concerning an AR-

    The AR is a cheap, effective, easy to manufacture, throw away design.... start making an AR that has all the smart features, and you end up with a completely new design.

    Stoners original idea was to produce these things at an alarming rate, when they became worn, damaged or exhibited problems, they were to be tossed and a new one issued.

    In todays world, people assume their beloved AR will last forever and give good service also.... while they wont last forever, they do give good service....for a throw away designed firearm.
     
  15. wally

    wally Member

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    Buffer tubes are pretty cheap and easy to replace. Why worry about it unless the chewing is causing failures before it offends you enough to change it for a new one.

    --wally.
     
  16. atblis

    atblis Member

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    Ah

    Was trying to figure out why I never had this carrier tilt issue with my Daewoo (doesn't have rails). No buffer tube.
     
  17. CleverNickname

    CleverNickname Member

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    IIRC this is what Magpul started out to do, but after they made so many changes they decided they might as well make a whole new rifle, resulting in the Masada.
     
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