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piston bolt system.....an idea.

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Zanad, May 30, 2011.

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  1. Zanad

    Zanad Member

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    the circular gas system on another thread got me thinking about an idea...


    Could you theoretically get rid of all springs in a gun?



    the drawing does not show where the hammer that activates the firing pin. That is located in between the arm.

    it does not show a slight off center on the center hole. it should be higher than where it is to help move the armature in a clockwise rotation.

    I haven't figured out if it could be a gas impingement or simple blow-back because I don't know if it would work.


    this would most likely be used in some sort of bull pup system.



    So, like it, hate it, ways to improve it?

    thanks.





    comments?
     

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    Last edited: May 30, 2011
  2. Apocalypse-Now

    Apocalypse-Now Member

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  3. Shear_stress

    Shear_stress Member

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    The question is why? Springs are the cheapest, simplest and most reliable way of generating force.

    A successful design is the result of answering a meaningful question or addressing a significant need. Replacing all the springs on a gun does neither.
     
  4. moonpie

    moonpie Member

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    yes in theory, but you would need some way to store enough gas at sufficient pressure and then release it at the proper time to reseat the bolt. on my job i repair several machines that use this principle with compressed air or hydraulics.i partially agree with shear stress that "at the moment" springs are simpler and easier but a successful design is one that works. the concept is possible but you have a long row to hoe before it becomes practical.of course it is possible that Sig or H K already have something similar for the next Shot Show
     
  5. Unistat

    Unistat Member

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    You can definately get rid of springs, but you have to replace them with something that is probably more complex.

    For example, one could design a gun that was electrically operated and fired (either by electronic ignition or by a solenoid firing pin) but then you would need all sorts of extra logistical requirements for no real improvement.
     
  6. kozak6

    kozak6 Member

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    What is the point in removing springs? They are an established, lightweight, very cheap, and very reliable technology.

    What if the bolt is in some intermediate stage? How does it start? How does it stop?

    A firearm isn't directly analogous to a steam engine or a car engine. An engine takes rapidly cycling linear forces, and turns them into a continuous rotary force for the purpose of doing work.

    What is the purpose of a firearm? To fire a bullet.

    Would you design a car engine to fire a single piston out the side of the engine block, and then stop?

    Was it this thread?
    http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=594092
     
  7. Apocalypse-Now

    Apocalypse-Now Member

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    what of the hammer spring, my friend? can't actuate that part with gas pressure.

    could some springs be eliminated? maybe, but certainly not all. :)
     
  8. Remo223

    Remo223 member

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    if ducati can eliminate the valve springs on their motorcycle engines, then someone should be able to eliminate the springs on a firearm. I don't see the point in doing it though. The benefit coming from eliminating springs on a motorcycle engine does not exist on a firearm.
     
  9. zollen

    zollen Member

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    The concept is sound, you just need to design the system such a way that it would not interfere with the standard AR components.

    Here is what I have been thinking... Each complete circular cycle would effectively perform a single reciprocating motion. Here are my questions: How big would the wheel is needed in order to have enough torque for the entire operation (i.e. pushing the very heavy BCG, stripping a bullet from a magazine, unlocking the blot...etc). How would you stop the wheel from over-turning itself?

    I suspect this type of circular piston system would produce less recoil than the conventional reciprocating system. The concept may also simplified the design of auto-fire and burst fire mode.

    Since this is no longer a DI system where hot gas would attack the BCG, a composite light weight impact resistance BCG would dramatically increase the feasibility of this concept.


    Nice drawing btw, You did way better than mine! :)
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2011
  10. zollen

    zollen Member

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    I have not yet come up a way to effectively translate the circular motion into a linear motion without using pinion gears. The ideal design would allows multiple circular motions to be translated into a single reciprocating motion without using any gears.
     
  11. kozak6

    kozak6 Member

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    It almost reminds me of a toggle action.
     
  12. Zanad

    Zanad Member

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    crap...... I forgot to draw something huge. the problem arose when i tried to make an animation..... I meant so that the rotating piece would make a full 360 and on the returning 179 degrees of motion would strip a round and lock the bolt in place...... not hit the center pin. so consider this action to work like a car engine piston reworked into a firearm.


    aw well, more drawing to do.
     
  13. Owen

    Owen Moderator Emeritus

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    it might be interesting for a machine gun, but how would you stop it?
     
  14. Six

    Six Member

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    Would be interesting to concept as a hand cranked automatic if not a blowback.
     
  15. kozak6

    kozak6 Member

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    How would it lock? How would it unlock?

    If "lockup" occurred somewhere before the bolt position shown above, it could possibly function not unlike a lever delayed blowback.

    Have a look at this recoil operated toggle lock:
    (refresh the page to restart the animation if it stops)
    [​IMG]


    Is a wheel really necessary?
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2011
  16. Zanad

    Zanad Member

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    please note this is a project in progress and will adjust my drawings accordingly.
     
  17. Slamfire

    Slamfire Member

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    Sure just use batteries and electromechanical devices to close the breech.

    Maybe a small nuclear reactor powering a steam engine, or a fuel cell. Maybe a wind turbine, thermal expansion of metals, or generically engineered gerbels in cages.

    Lots of ideas.
     
  18. zollen

    zollen Member

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    Please correct me if I am wrong. If I understood your diagram correctly, were you suggesting there are more simple mechanisms to perform the delay shell extraction operation?
     
  19. Zanad

    Zanad Member

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    I'm updating photo's now but I'm thinking the mechanism will lock by using something similar to an AR-15 bolt with a shorter carrier to reduce size. since i dont have a model to work with on an ar-15, it may or may not be included.
     
  20. Zanad

    Zanad Member

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    update....
    OK, i solved a few problems that were found in the drawing.

    I realize I cant get rid of every single spring in a gun because I still need the trigger spring.

    I need help on where to put the firing pin.

    should I make it a 2 piece pin or put the pin at an upward angle? Like 10 degrees or so.

    thank you for your help and this is an ongoing project...
     

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  21. kozak6

    kozak6 Member

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    How does it lock? How does it unlock? What rotates the bolt head?

    It's probably easier to use a gear for rendering purposes, but most bolt heads only have 2-8 locking lugs.
     
  22. Zanad

    Zanad Member

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    the front bolt itself works similar to an AR-15, I just couldn't render it properly.
     
  23. Justin

    Justin Moderator Staff Member

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    There are a small number of dedicated target pistols that work via the use of electronically activated triggers and/or solenoid-powered firing pins.

    They are finicky, to say the least.
     
  24. Vern Humphrey

    Vern Humphrey Member

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    Yes. Some howitzers work by compressing gas in recoil, and return to battery using the energy of the expanding gas.
     
  25. Sam Cade

    Sam Cade Member

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    Gas springs aren't really suited to most small arms use though, just because of their inherent complexity, heat sensitivity and size.
    Remember, a gas spring has an extended length at least Twice the length of stroke.
     
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