Planting a seed

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics, and Training' started by Armored farmer, Nov 16, 2021.

  1. md7

    md7 Member

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    Even legal, justifiable defensive shootings will kick off pricey legal proceedings and the chance of jail time. Defensive shootings should be last resort only, and never desired/hoped for/looked forward to.

    Avoid stupid people, stupid places, and stupid things. If trouble finds you, and there’s a peaceful way out of it then take the peaceful way out if it’s possible.

    Lastly, no. My ccw capability has no bearing at all on when it would potentially be drawn and used. That’s strictly a moral and legal issue, not an equipment issue.
     
  2. bullseye308

    bullseye308 Member

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    For many years when someone asks my why I carry a gun, I usually tell them it’s like having medical insurance, car insurance, or a fire extinguisher. Everyone should have one, know how to use it, and pray they never have to. Nothing has changed. I have had to use my medical insurance a lot lately and seriously wish I hadn’t had to. I have had to use my auto insurance not long ago and didn’t like it but glad it was there(not my fault), my gun has never been used for its intended purpose and I continue to pray daily it never will be. If it is it will not be my choice, but rather some delinquent made the wrong decision and hopefully will survive it to learn from it.

    Watching the riots, looting, burnings, and other lawlessness these last few years has had me and many others thinking if law enforcement won’t do their jobs, we the people should step up and do our duty to our fellow citizens. The problem is not necessarily a legal one but more of a moral one I think, and that is why it was allowed to continue like it did and is at times. It’s not the urge to “take out the trash” and rack up a kill list(which is how we would be painted), more so of protecting the innocent and punishing the violent. The reality is that morality keeps us home and not interfering with issues like those that are not putting us in a direct threat (unless you live local to the mess) and as responsible gun owners, even if that seems like something we should/could do, we don’t need to get involved.

    The capability of my weapon does bear slightly on weather I may put it to use or not. IF I am already in a position where I feel I have to draw it, and obviously too many factors come into play here, but I switched from a Glock 17 to a 9mm 1911 as I shoot it with much more precision and in the super slight teeny tiny chance that I am in a deadly force encounter, I hope I am able to make use of that increased accuracy my 1911 provides to reduce the risk to innocents or worst case, a hostage.

    May I live out the rest of my life and never fire a shot in anger, and I truly wish the same on all of you as well.
     
  3. huntsman

    huntsman Member

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    I don’t know it seems pretty cut and dry to me, if your life is threatened you have two choices, nothing or defend yourself.

    what you have is what you have use it as best you can, fixating about the size of your weapon ahead of time seems like a waste of time and energy.
     
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  4. PapaG

    PapaG Member

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    I actually had been approved as a concealed carry instructor. I'd sat through classes for Utah, Florida, and Illinois ccw permits and had all three. I have had many successful years as a public school teacher, private industry learning consultant, and yes, even as a Sunday school teacher. Listening to questions and comments made in ccw classes made me rethink my future as an instructor enough to shred my certificate. Way too many wannabe warriors, people with a retribution wish, and those so full of old timey b.s. that I decided to enjoy my retirement without going back to handling a bunch of high school jock types. They are in the minority, true, but I didn't need that or all the implied liability that Illinois puts on the intructor.
    All that said, your seed took root. I carry. Not always on my person but always in my vehicles and always have something close to hand at home or down at "The Hill".
    What the carry gun is has no bearing on my willingness to draw it. Drawing, or pulling, or whatever it is called is my last chance thing. I avoid places and situations that would put me and mine in jeopardy as much as possible. I would never "pull" my gun as a deterrent unless in absolute certainty of serious harm. I don't talk about carrying or advertise it in any way.
    I've been reading Ayoob's monthly articles on actual shootings for over thirty a five years and hope to never have to experience the aftermath of a shooting. Don't want the "mark of Cain".
    Three things have stuck in my mind from the many classes, refreshes and seminars I've attended.
    1. If you have to use your gun and shoot ..... It will be the most expensive shot you'll ever fire.
    2. If you have to shoot in defense of yourself/others, you will be: arrested; and sued. It will likely be expensive win or lose in court.
    3. Be sure you have a lot of insurance (or be so poor you have nothing to lose).
    Probably more than you wanted in an answer but I couldn't do a simple yes or no. It is a deep subject with deeper moral implications. I will defend my life and that of my family.
     
  5. Armored farmer

    Armored farmer Member

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    Thanks for the response. I think you get my meaning..
    Too much bravado about being involved in a shooting event. It is best to be avoided at all cost short of life and limb.
    I hold Utah. Illinois, and Florida ccp's also. I think that was the natural progression for Illinois residents. I got the Utah non resident first so I could carry in Indiana. Then Illinois finally issued.
     
  6. PapaG

    PapaG Member

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    Utah, Florida, Illinois. Of course IL was last, being the last to legalize carry.
     
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  7. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator Staff Member

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    I hope none of us want to have to use our weapon for self defense, the same as I hope we are all capable, willing, and ready should it happen.
     
  8. d2wing

    d2wing Member

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    I agree with avoidance is the best course. The one time I intentionally went into a confrontation was in Louisiana when two carloads of minority kids were playing very loud music in an area where many of us camped. I was alone so I decided to not carry a weapon and I walked over a talked to the kids. Some were defiant some thought I was right. I calmly walked away and after one more loud song they left in peace. If I carried a weapon or issued a threat, I think I would have been in a losing fight. Instead, I appealed to their sense of decency and with firm conviction told them to do the right thing. I just ignored when defiant ones asked who I was and challenged me. Since I was deep in Cajun country, I was confident they wouldn't be too eager to start anything. Situational awareness, finesse and either stupidity or courage, anyway showing no fear carried the day. They probably wondered just who was that crazy white guy. I have another story or three from that same trip.
     
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  9. Armored farmer

    Armored farmer Member

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    Timing is the most difficult and most important part of wisdom.
     
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  10. old lady new shooter

    old lady new shooter Member

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  11. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    "Rambozos" is how I refer to the chest thumping blustering children crying how tough they wanna be that have never been in an serious altercation where they could be maimed or killed and appear to be eager for it. Being a peaceful person that is prepared to defend against violence is preferable.

    Being properly prepared with mind and skill is more important than the weapon. Your goal is to avoid having to use the tools on and around you to defend yourself, but the will and skill to use them if you are forced to. Better to avoid, deescalate, withdraw to a place of safety for you and yours than have to fight your way to safety. A firearm is another tool in a world of tools, but the mind is what you use to avoid the fight or carry it out.
     
  12. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    Every defensive training class should start with that discussion.
     
  13. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    Means nothing.
    Alrighty then.
     
  14. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    Folks, this is ST&T, not Hunting
     
  15. Armored farmer

    Armored farmer Member

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    The "folks" responsible for this thread already know that.
    We also know its soon to be locked when @Kleanbore starts posting.
     
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  16. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    ???
     
  17. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    Do not forget avoidance (almost aways a very good idea even if not legally required), withdrawal, evasion, escape, and deescalation.
     
  18. Shawn Dodson

    Shawn Dodson Member

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    In any given situation, what would you do if you didn't have a gun?
     
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  19. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    That's probably a very good way to look at mindset.
     
  20. lemaymiami

    lemaymiami Member

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    Read through this thread and agree with most of the responses... I figure it's a topic we all ought to be re-visiting periodically. The way I see it, all of us need to look clearly at the difference between what you can do... and just maybe, what you should do when it comes to carrying a concealed weapon and/or defending yourself or another with a weapon (of any kind - our focus here will always be firearms..).

    I chose, all those years ago, when I retired out of police work not to carry a sidearm again -if at all possible... I've lived with that decision now for 26 years and so far... it's been the right one for me. I'm not a complete fool, I'll always have a firearm nearby - just not on my person. Part of my retirement package back in 1995 was my first concealed carry permit (Florida). I've made a point of renewing it every five years since then as a precaution in case I ever needed to go back into work that required a carry permit. So far that hasn't happened and at age 73 isn't very likely at all.

    I don't live in isolation and I'm in places at times when there are possible threats - but so far no serious problems. If my decision is a mistake - I'll be the first to find out... I'd like to live out my life without ever needing a sidearm again.. but life does have a way of intervening...

    Like I said before, all of us ought to re-visit this topic from time to time... and it's one that every person considering whether to carry a gun ought to consider very carefully before going armed in public...
     
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  21. Old Dog

    Old Dog Member

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    OP, I'm still not quite understanding what you're asking with regard to the "capability" of our ccw (handgun) and how it would have any bearing on whether or not to draw the weapon. Size? Capacity? Proficiency with it? Mode of carry?

    It's not the tool. It's the threat that should have the bearing on whether or not to draw the weapon. And if you've had no training, well, utilize the Nike defense if at all possible, no shame in running away. Anyway, situation would be a factor. As would who is with me (young children or armed, trained spouse/friend). Location (crowded street/mall/restaurant). Number of players constituting the apparent threat. The tool may come in to play if you absolutely must respond with lethal force (imminent threat of death/serious bodily harm to you or another) and you are one of those who only carries a 5-shot J-frame or single stack .32 or .380... and may be pocket-carrying or another sub-optimal mode.

    Shawn Dodson pretty much nailed it in post #44. But to paraphrase the immortal words of the legendary Clint Eastwood, "... a good man's gotta know his limitations."
     
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  22. Armored farmer

    Armored farmer Member

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    Yeah I get it, I'm still fumbling with the proper way to word my question.
    So for example, you're carrying your high cap 9mm full size with the stippling and cut-out slide, threaded barrel and rmr mounted. (You know the type) the one you've trained with, the envy of your combat classmates ....
    You find yourself in a serious confrontation vs.......

    You find yourself in the same confrontation. Under the same circumstances EXCEPT your carrying your jframe....or lcp...or (fill in subcompact...)

    Do you react differently?

    It's huge to reveal that you are carrying.

    You're a lawman @Old Dog . When you see a man with a gun in his hand....what's your response. You don't know his limitations.
    Is he a good guy or bad guy?
    There's no answering my question. I'm hoping that we don't get too wrapped up in our defensive minded studies and practices that we develop a desire to use them unnecessarily.
    Does my point come across as valid.?
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2021
  23. Rockrivr1

    Rockrivr1 Member

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    I've been carry a small handgun for years. Not sure if that gives me a reason to draw or not draw, but to this point I've never had to draw my gun out of the holster. A few years back the wife and I were leaving the mall and heading to our car in a multi level parking garage and two guys were behind us. I didn't think much of it until I noticed that they had spread out to either side of the lane we were walking up. Also noticed we were entirely alone in the parking structure at that point and they were getting closer. As I looked at them they just stared right back at me. Knew in my bones it was a bad situation, so I opened my jacket and put my hand on my CCW in a way that they could see me. Both of them instantly turned around and went back the other way. Positive that if I didn't have a gun with me it would have been a mugging. Wife was oblivious and I kept it that way.
     
  24. trackskippy

    trackskippy Member

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    I really dont see what the gun has to do with whether or not it gets drawn. Its not the gun thats driving the problem/response, its the threat. The threat decides what happens, the gun is simply the response to it, or not.

    If things dont go well, then the problem becomes, did you bring enough gun, and are you capable with it. Doesn't really matter what it is, at the point I would decide to draw, its getting drawn and quite likely fired at that point.

    The only other question I can see here is, me asking myself, what in the world would possess you to carry a 5 shot J frame or something like an LCP, as a primary and only gun? :)

    But thats just me. :p
     
  25. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    This is the great point here.

    Sorry, but I gotta agree, I don't get the other question at all. If you're carrying a "barbecue gun" or your plainest EDC, how can that be a factor when you're forced to defend your life? OR are you saying that the gunslinger fantasy mindset might smack right up against reality when you second guess how the LEOs or a DA will view that Anime fantasy pistol with "stippling and cut-out slide, threaded barrel and rmr mounted"?
     
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