Plated bullet differences - Mythbusting at 25/50 yards

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LiveLife

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I have been shooting copper plated bullets for over 25 years and they have certainly evolved! They ranged from almost "copper washed" bullets where thin plating failed and lost accuracy even below mid level jacketed load data to thicker plated bullets (.010" - .015") like Speer TMJ/Gold Dot bullets on par with jacketed bullet thickness (.015" - .030").

Over the years on THR, many discussions ensued addressing the differences in plated bullets but subjective/personal opinions were often voiced instead of objective/factual data and I hope this thread will clarify questions regarding differences in plated bullets and in the spirit of "THR mythbusting" (like the digital scale mythbusting thread), do comparison range tests at 25/50 yards loaded up to rated velocities (ultimately, it's the holes on target that really matter, right?).

Testing method using the following:

- 17" Just Right carbine with 9mm/40S&W/45ACP caliber conversions
- Bushnell Banner Dusk & Dawn 6-18x50mm
- Leapers UTG Tactical OP bipod
- Caldwell chrono/app with Samsung smartphone

To conduct "blind test" during range sessions, I will have my wife/daughter load up numbered ammo boxes with rounds primer side up and I will not look at the bullet tips of loaded rounds while loading the magazines. Targets will be numbered same as ammo boxes so I won't know which brand bullets I am firing until I return back home.

Barrels of carbine will be cleaned the same prior to firing each test group for 5 round chrono measurements followed by 10 shot groups at 25 and 50 yards. To minimize barrel wear from bore brush (due to this thread discussion), barrels will be cleaned with Hoppes #9 swab followed by clean patches (Viva paper towel) and copper bore brush will be used only when necessary. Barrels will be allowed to cool between test groups.
(Updated 8/12/16) FYI, below is listing of "average/around or range of" plating thickness and velocity rating as best as I have found so far and will update as more information becomes available - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=10309500#post10309500

Speer Gold Dot: Around .018" - http://www.speer-ammo.com/products/gold_dot_const.aspx

Speer Total Metal Jacket (TMJ - Trademark) : Around .015" - http://www.speer-bullets.com/products/handgun/plinker/tmj.aspx

Rocky Mountain Reloading Hardcore Match: .012" - .014" (rated to 1500 fps, 11-12 BHN) - https://rmrbullets.com/shop/bullets...15-gr-rmr-hardcore-match-round-nose-plated-2/

Berry's MFG Thick Plated (TP): .006" - .012" (rated to 1500 fps) - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9589491#post9589491

PowerBond/Accura Outdoors: .010" - .011" (rated to 1300 fps) - https://accuraoutdoors.com/product-category/bullets/

X-Treme Heavy Plate Concave Base/Hollow Point (HPCB/HP): .008" - .010" (rated to 1500 fps, lead wire) - http://www.xtremebullets.com/Bullet-Load-Info-s/1952.htm

Rocky Mountain Reloading Regular: .008" - .010" (no velocity rating yet) - https://rmrbullets.com/shop/bullets...9mm-124-gr-rmr-round-nose-plated-bullets-new/

Berry's MFG Regular: .0035" - .008" (rated to 1250 fps) - https://www.berrysmfg.com/faq#FAQ6

Hunting Shack Munitions: Around .005" (no fps rating) - http://www.midwayusa.com/product/26...ameter-124-grain-plated-round-nose-box-of-500

Rainier Ballistics: Around .004" (rated to 1500 fps?) - http://www.midwayusa.com/product/10...-9mm-355-diameter-115-grain-plated-round-nose

X-Treme Regular: .006" - .008" (rated to 1200 fps, lead wire) - http://www.xtremebullets.com/Bullet-Load-Info-s/1952.htm

Frontier CMJ (Complete Metal Jacket): Can't find plating thickness or fps rating - http://www.frontierbullets.co.za/product/complete-metal-jacket-bullets/
 
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I am a bit puzzled. Berry's MFG FAQ page says this - https://www.berrysmfg.com/faq#FAQ6
Question: How thick is the "jacket" on your bullets?

Depending upon the caliber, the thickness of the plating on our bullets ranges from 3.5 up to 8 thousandths of an inch of plating on each side. This is thicker than paper and ensures no lead in your bore. The bullets designed for higher velocities (45-70, 500 S&W etc.) have the thickest plating.
But Jay Phillips posted this - http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4124526#post4124526
Depending on caliber our plating is no less than .006" and goes up to .012" thick.

Speer TMJ bullets are a plated bullet with an even thicker plating coming close to a jacket at about .015 in thickness.
________________
Jay R. Phillips
Berry's MFG
So I am guessing Berry's regular plated bullets are .0035"-.008" and Berry's thick plated bullets are .012"?

It would be nice if Jay Phillips (Berry's MFG on THR) could clarify this for us (sent Jay an email).
 
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bds, what are your thoughts on the lead core hardness? RMR says their core is 11-12 BHN. I ask mainly for the neck tension and the possibility of swagging a bullet undersize.
 
BDS, I have a question about plated as well. I have a couple of guns like my 92fs that are a bit wide (.358). I snapped up a couple of boxes of the 124 grain speer TMJs for a very good price but, like any other undersized plated bullets, they were not very accurate.

With cast lead or with standard plated bullets (say .003 to .010 thickness) I would expect that to be normal unless the bullets are sized properly. With Jacketed bullets however, that same 92 is very accurate even if the jacketed bullets are .355. Unless I am mistaken, I understand that the plating on those bullets is around .018 which is pretty close to the thickness of most jacketed bullets. The only difference is that they plate the lead instead of pouring it into the jacket.

Would you say this something just unique to my situation or does the fact that they ARE plated play into it?
 
Would you say this something just unique to my situation or does the fact that they ARE plated play into it?

It may be that your gun just doesn't like the Speer TMJ.

We've been doing some testing with plated bullets. It appears that the thickness of the plating varies quite a bit depending on where at on the bullet it is. The 16 thousandth quoted by BDS for a TMJ is probably from the thickest part of the plating. I think that Berry's has the most honest answer to the thickness of their plating. They really do vary from 3.5 thou to 8 thou depending on where you measure. This seems to be the closest for ALL the big name plating companies. Plating is a difficult thing to measure from bullet to bullet.

Now, to answer your question. Conventional electroplating, by its nature, produces a brittle plating. If the bullet has to expand too much to fill the bore, it will crack the plating. However, squeezing the bullet seems to help keep it held together. When shooting plated bullets, my suggestion would be to buy oversized bullets for the task. I shoot .357 diameter plated bullets in all my 9mms.
 
Thank you Jake. I know you used to sell Berry's bullets and now manufacture your own line of bullets so explanation of varying thickness of copper plating on bullet makes sense. So I added "average/around" comments in the original post to better indicate advertised plating thickness.

BTW, can you provide us information on RMR's new "regular" plated bullets (different from thicker plated "Hardcore Match") as to "average" plating thickness and velocity rating?
 
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Rule3, yes to your PM as to conducting comparison range testing at 25/50 yards.

I will be using the following equipment for the 25/50 yard testing:

- 17" Just Right carbine with 9mm/40S&W/45ACP caliber conversions
- Bushnell Banner Dusk & Dawn 6-18x50mm
- Leapers UTG Tactical OP bipod
- Caldwell chrono/app with Samsung smartphone

I will place orders for different plated bullets I do not have on hand so range testing will start once bullets arrive.

For 9mm, I am planning the following:

- Berry's 115 gr RN regular
- Berry's 115 gr HBRN-TP
- HSM 115 gr RN
- Rainier 115 gr RN
- RMR 115 gr HM RN
- X-Treme 115 gr RN
- X-Treme 115 gr HPCB

- Berry's 124 gr RN regular
- Berry's 124 gr HBRN-TP
- HSM 124 gr RN
- Rainier 124 gr RN
- RMR 124 gr RN regular
- RMR 124 gr HM RN
- X-Treme 124 gr RN
- X-Treme 124 gr HPCB

I have other bullet types (HP, 147 gr, etc.). If you want other plated bullets tested, let me know.
 
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I recently had David Sams install an optical sight base to my target M92. This is an early Bullseye pistol by Mr Sams and it has the Bar Sto barrel. I never used it in Bullseye Competition because shooting with iron sights is not worth the time and effort. But, now with an Ultra Dot on top, I would like to get it to shoot. I took it out with 124 grain LRN bullets (around 1100 fps) and it shot horrible at all distances. At least it was consistent.

IMG_3798%20Beretta%20M92%20Ultradot_zpsp5rwe3ow.jpg

It shot much better with factory 115 FMJ’s and I am wondering, what plated bullets will hold up to 1150-1200 fps in a 9mm? David Sams and others have said you have to get the velocity up to 1150-1200 fps to get any accuracy.
 
Our experience is that barsto barrels have undersized chambers and bores. It makes anything but FMJ difficult to load for. I don't think that using .357 bullets would be an option for a bar sto barrel.

Also, it's a m92. You can only polish a turd so much before you're covered in crap. :evil:
 
That's quite a piece of work you got there Slamfire. Bet your forearms are in good shape.
 
Slamfire,
The RMR THick Plate hardcore match should hold up at 1100-1200 just fine.

What was the BHN if the lead RNs you tried?
MBC 9mm Coated Cones BHN18 seem to be good i that velocity range,
using the same hardness in 357 I have goon higher with good results,
 
Slamfire, my experience is that it takes a high quality cast bullet to get good accuracy in the 9mm. Also, the lead bullets are sensitive to powder choice, too.

For a less exprnsive bullet for the 9mm target loads, try either the RMR or Precision Delta FMJ. Also, my PPC match loads use LongShot and run 1,200fps from a 5" barrel.

The reason for the velocity threshold, is to keep the bullet supersonic to the 50yd target. When going transonic is when the accuracy/stability problems occur.
 
longdayjake said:
bds said:
BTW, can you provide us information on RMR's new "regular" plated bullets
Those are conventionally electroplated. Thickness is about .008-.010 thick."
Jake, thanks for the information < updated OP >
Dudedog said:
BDS PM me And I can send you a sample of the 124gr RMR Target HPs to try
Thanks but I have RMR 124/147 gr HM HP on hand already. Since I have Speer 124 gr Gold Dot HP, I may test Berry's 124 gr HHP.


Testing method added to the OP (for more objective range testing) - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=808446
Testing method using the following:

- 17" Just Right carbine with 9mm/40S&W/45ACP caliber conversions
- Bushnell Banner Dusk & Dawn 6-18x50mm
- Leapers UTG Tactical OP bipod
- Caldwell chrono/app with Samsung smartphone

To conduct "blind test" during range sessions, I will have my wife/daughter load up numbered ammo boxes with rounds primer side up and I will not look at the bullet tips of loaded rounds while loading the magazines. Targets will be numbered same as ammo boxes so I won't know which brand bullets I am firing until I return back home.

Barrels of carbine will be cleaned the same prior to firing each test group for 5 round chrono measurements followed by 10 shot groups at 25 and 50 yards. To minimize barrel wear from bore brush (due to this thread discussion), barrels will be cleaned with Hoppes #9 swab followed by clean patches (Viva paper towel) and copper bore brush will be used only when necessary. Barrels will be allowed to cool between test groups.
 
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I got an email response from Justin Taylor, Marketing and Sales Manager for Berry’s Manufacturing
From: John John [*******@yahoo.com]
To: Jay Phillips [*******@berrysmfg.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2016 12:51 AM
Subject: Need plating thickness clarification on THR forum thread

Mr. Phillips,

A new discussion thread on plated bullets was created and there seems to be inconsistencies in the thickness of regular vs thick plated bullets posted in Berry's MFG FAQ page vs information you have posted in the past.

Could you clarify the plating thickness of your regular vs thick plated bullets on the THR thread?

Here's the discussion thread - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=808446

Thank you.

John
From: Justin Taylor <*******@berrysmfg.com>
To: John John <*******@yahoo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2016 4:28 PM
Subject: RE: Need plating thickness clarification on THR forum thread

My name is Justin Taylor and I am the Marketing and Sales Manager at Berry’s.

Jay is no longer with Berry’s. I have created a user account for your blog and would like to provide the info that you are looking for. Please let me know when I am able to do so.

Thanks!

Justin Taylor
Marketing and Sales Manager
Berry’s Manufacturing
Ph: (800) 269-7373
Email: *******@berrysmfg.com
Web: www.berrysmfg.com
From: John John <*******@yahoo.com>
To: Justin Taylor <*******@berrysmfg.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2016 1:15 AM
Subject: Re: Need plating thickness clarification on THR forum thread

Thank you Justin for your reply.

We would appreciate as much information as you can provide us regarding Berry's plated bullets (including the Hybrid HP bullets) in terms of plating thickness (range or average), rated/suggested velocities, bullet diameters, bullet core hardness, etc.

You can post on THR thread at your convenience and I will update my original post information.

Thanks again for your reply.

John
 
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What was the BHN if the lead RNs you tried?

My recollection was that Reese of Valiant bullets kept them around 13-15 BHM. My Bullseye buds tell me it is a lot harder to get a 9mm to shoot as well as a 45 ACP, and it can, but since you have to push the bullets to 1150-1200, there is no recoil advantage to use the 9mm.

I just bought the thing because I wanted an accurate pistol, then it sat around for maybe 15 years.

I do know of Camp Perry shooters who have won the Nationals with the 9mm Beretta, and the AMU shooters I shot with this year, they guys next to me were using it the centerfire stage.
 
Did I miss the test results or is this a plan for the future?

My complaint is that you don't have any Zero, Montana Gold, or Precision Delta jacketed bullets for comparison.
You also need at least two different guns.
 
noylj, you didn't miss a thing.

I am barely at ordering plated bullets phase and getting clarification information from manufacturers while waiting for bullets to arrive. I may send additional emails to Frontier/Hunting Shack Munitions/Rainier Ballistics/Speer-Vista Outdoor/X-Treme so they get a chance to provide information on their plated bullets.
noylj said:
My complaint is that you don't have any Zero, Montana Gold, or Precision Delta jacketed bullets for comparison.

You also need at least two different guns.
I have Montana Gold/Winchester FMJ/JHP bullets and recently bought RMR FMJ/JHP bullets in 9mm/40S&W/45ACP so I should have enough jacketed bullets for reference/comparison but can buy more jacketed bullets if necessary.

I also have 16" PSA 9mm carbine (1:10 twist rate) with free float KeyMod handguard but 17" Just Right carbine (1:16 twist rate) with free float handguard has been producing smaller shot groups so I will test both carbines and post smallest shot groups obtained. I also built two 16" PSA 9mm Magpul MOE carbines (1:10 twist rate) for my sister/BIL and they are available for testing.
 
It sticks in my head that many target shooters use Sierra, Nosler, and now Zero JHPs. I don't know if any bullseye shooters are using XTP or HAP but a lot of USPSA shooters trying to hit the "upper A" do.

Back when I was trying to equal my P210's factory target, the only FMJ that even came close was the 115 gr Nosler... which they promptly discontinued.
 
Keep in mind that this thread is not about jacketed vs plated instead testing for differences among plated bullets.

I do however have a feeling we may end up starting a jacketed vs plated thread.
 
I agree that any test of plated bullets isn't complete without at least one quality jacketed bullet(like an XTP or HAP) as an accuracy benchmark.

To be honest, I'd also include at least one of the newer tech. coated bullets, as they seem to offer the same benefits(in terms of leading) of plated bullets but with greater accuracy potential and less cost.
 
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