Please explain the price of this marlin.

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by Obturation, Mar 6, 2022.

  1. Skylerbone

    Skylerbone Member

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    And yet in this specific example no other “copies” were being nudged upward to anything like the bid placed and we have a member in good standing asserting that authorities had asked after a similar, traceable item based on a laundering attempt. That they used pictures of his exact rifle, with S/N visible implies to me that no actual firearm was used in the commission of the crime.

    For all we know, the entirety of the transaction’s details are embedded within the listing including “transaction fees”. Again best left to law enforcement whilst we focus on actual firearms and slightly less inflated real world prices.
     
  2. Varminterror

    Varminterror Member

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    What’s traceable, just because a serial numbered item was transacted? The buyer disappears because they were never real, the seller doesn’t have a rifle they never actually had, and the money received by the seller appears, by all accounts, to be honorably gained…
     
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  3. mavracer

    mavracer Member

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    [Sarcasm] I hear it's all the rage at police auctions[/sarcasm]
    I understand just fine, I just recognize some of the key elements that are missing for it to work.
    Gunbroker is too transparent, buyers and sell
    Are you are aware that you can search completed auctions? Screenshot_20220308-061145.png yes the buyer may not exist but the seller has to appear legitimate. This seller has an FFL it'd be easy enough for ATF to look in his bound book and go from there.
     
  4. Varminterror

    Varminterror Member

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    And what will they find? They’ll find an imaginary transaction and the shop won’t have a rifle it isn’t supposed to have, because they sold it already…

    Again - the simplest answer is usually the correct one. Does it make more sense that a criminal would use a known and documented means to commit crime, and would not be terribly concerned about committing fraud as they commit fraud, or more sense that multiple folks met that day and all unwittingly bid up and up to ultimately buy a plain Jane 336 for $10,000 - while 6 others were available for less than 1/10th of that price on that same day… The simplest answer is that when something appears nefarious, it likely is.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2022
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  5. mavracer

    mavracer Member

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    Man for someone who believes this FFL is money laundering, you sure give up easy proving it lol.
    Cause I got more questions.
    What's the name and address of the FFL you shipped it to? If not why your auction says. Screenshots_2022-03-08-07-52-51.png
    And wouldn't their be other suspicious transactions?
    I mean the guy would be crazy to risk a buisness his FFL and jail time for a couple hundred dollar commission on 10k one time.
    Just over 10k seems like a such a dumb amount to launder.
    Maximum risk minimum reward is a poor business model.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2022
  6. Dr.Rob

    Dr.Rob Moderator Staff Member

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    I have bought a few guns off gb, but I paid the buy it now price after a lot of shopping.
     
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  7. Obturation

    Obturation Member

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    I've got a 2006 marlin 336w, it's in like new condition. Thinking about listing it for $5,000.:evil:

    That'll buy me a couple nice revolvers.
     
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  8. Mosin77

    Mosin77 Member

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    Can someone please explain to me (us) how this money laundering scheme actually works? Just the basic overview would do. I have heard people say this many times about auctions but am very hesitant to google “how to launder money,” for obvious reasons. What’s in it for the buyer? For the seller? Are they in cahoots or do random n’er-do-wells glom onto a random auction for nefarious purposes.


    I’ve seen some truly crazy prices in the last couple years on Gunbroker, but I agree this one is up there. And I somehow really doubt the seller will see a (valid) check for the amount in question. I don’t know if it’s shill bidders or bots or criminal syndicates or just fools who wish ardently to be parted from their money. But it does make for entertaining (and sometimes frustrating) watching. If a few more of those happen, common rifles that by rights ought to be about $350-400 will be selling routinely for 2k.
     
  9. Sistema1927

    Sistema1927 Member

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    I've got a 1975 JM Marlin 336 that I will let go for $10K. No scope, but I will throw in a sling. :)
     
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  10. CoalTrain49

    CoalTrain49 Member

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    Many Mexican restaurants launder cartel drug money. Ever wonder why there are so many Mexican restaurants? There's about five in the small town nearest me, population 12K. One of them is a local chain with high overhead. I would bet $100 that they own the building and have unlimited financing from some source other than a bank. That source would be an individual with connections to a drug cartel that needs to get money invested into a legit US business with some return. The restaurant stays in business even when others are folding during the pandemic. Reason, unlimited financial support with little or no interest. There's also La Familia which manages the enterprise. If you happen to be part of that then you and your family are golden and overflow extends out into the Mexican community, which is large here. I'm not judging anyone, I understand the culture having been raised on the border.

    So these so called auctions are electronic transactions for something that has little value compared to the sold price. Same thing happens in the art world. It's just a way to move money under the guise of a purchase.

    The rifle probably was transferred and logged. Someone from the states AG's office will be contacting the seller shortly. Although the seller has no control over an auctions final price it looks highly suspect to me. The seller may have actually received the 10K in BitRail and shipped the rifle to a bonafide buyer (FFL). No paper trail (except FFL) and the seller then takes a money laundering fee and returns most of the money back to the buyer. The buyer has then made a lot of money disappear with the help of a seller.

    The buyer and seller could have a lot of explaining to do but unless there is proof of intent to launder money there really hasn't been a crime committed. Tracking crypto currency is pretty tough these days.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2022
  11. someguy2800

    someguy2800 Member

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    Exactly, if you were going to have an online transaction for an item that doesn't actually exist then why would you do it with an item that by nature is traceable? If your doing it to be able to say to the government "see this is where I got that money", then they are going to want to see who paid for it, what FFL was it sent to, does that FFL have a transfer form matching the purchaser in their files, where else has that serial number shown up online, ect... It really makes no sense when you could use some other untraceable item.
     
  12. CoalTrain49

    CoalTrain49 Member

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    What kind of sling?
     
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  13. Varminterror

    Varminterror Member

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    “Traceable items” have been fraudulently represented in money laundering schemes for generations.

    “Hiding in plain sight” is an advantage. “Traceability” of firearms after 3 years is virtually impossible - many folks here are the REASON money laundering works this way; the belief that it’s a tightly tracked system, but is not, is part of the subterfuge.
     
  14. DustyGmt

    DustyGmt Member

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    It's so funny to see this thread with the title such as it is. My buddy sent me a pic of this gun and asked me the same thing.
     
  15. Varminterror

    Varminterror Member

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    I do appreciate a bit of nostalgia for a brief moment every time I see ridiculously priced listings, before I sink into the reality of either panic buying, foolish sellers thinking their product is worth too much, scheming sellers looking for foolish buyers, or devious schemes like this…

    High - SUPER HIGH - prices make me recall in college, walking into a gunshop in Manhattan, KS for the first time. I immediately noticed a J.C. Higgins Model 20 12 ga hanging on the wall with a sign that said $2000. As calmly as I could, I metered and tried to conceal my excitement as I asked the clerk why it was priced so high, and he just smiled… I didn’t get the joke then, don’t really now… other than to know it was a joke. I was frantic at the time because despite my affection for the scattergun, as a freshman in college, I would have sprinted home afoot afire to bring back my own JC Higgins Mod20 in far better condition than theirs (for which I’d paid $70 at a farm auction a few years prior) and give him a great deal on it at $1500!
     
  16. Dr.Rob

    Dr.Rob Moderator Staff Member

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    Buyer beware, if the ad says no local pick ups maybe it's a part time dealer that doesn't want a random person coming to his house?
     
  17. Grug Crood

    Grug Crood Member

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    When one guy decides he wants to demoralize other bidders and is willing to pay top dollar on eBay there's an out if things go too high ... or at least there used to be.

    You can claim the number entered was a mistake, such as on a $1.00 item bidding $100 because you left off a decimal point. If two people did the same thing, bidding something expecting to go to $1000 adding an "extra zero", you could have appearance of a bidding war with automatic bids right up to the $10,000. It's gone now, but if that's what happened you'd be able to tell from looking at the bids.

    But yeah, could easily be money laundering too, which I suppose happens a lot on both Gunbroker and eBay.

    Anyway, first post, so intro, X-military, always had pistols, but just now getting back into rifles. One hunting rifle (Mossberg .308 purchased December still not shot because sent it in for warranty with scope rails canted and one screw non-standard sized plus found rusty bolt), one Savage .17HMR Wallyworld that sadly I didn't know existed without an accutrigger just sitting till I rework the trigger, and now four and counting 22's, Ruger 10/22, Henry H001, Sears 41 (Marlin 101), and just got a Savage Mark I. So far my Ruger Redhawk .45 will probably outshoot them all, but Henry is slowly getting there.

    So, Hello :D
     
  18. blue32

    blue32 Member

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    Concealing the source of illicitly obtained goods or money. It begins with placement. Layering is the fun part. Integration is when it is reintroduced into the system as laundered, or in other words, cleaned. Without seeing all the parts of whatever this gunbroker listing is, I can't explain it to you. I deal with ML a lot and while I wouldn't completely write off the listing as ML, its outside the norms.

    Assuming it is ML and assuming a lot of other things, I would wager the money paid to the "seller" is actually a money mule (and the recipient of said funds might believe they are being advanced funds to be used to purchase office equipment for the job they just landed on indeed.com). The recipient sends the office equipment to whatever address. It is received by another mule who is instructed to pawn the equipment, keeping a small percentage for themselves, and send the rest to a digital wallet. The funds are then passed and broken up within many wallets to further obscure the origin. Maybe down the road the scammer cashes out, thus integrating the funds into the system as if they were a clean crypto investment. Again, I'm just using my experience to fill in the gaps.

    And don't worry about typing how to launder money in a search engine. In fact, I encourage everyone to educate themselves. The more people know about ML the less people are victimized.
     
  19. Mosin77

    Mosin77 Member

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    Ok, I’ve been thinking about this for a little while, because it’s a very common allegation that something is fishy with these auctions. I think I understand how this might work.

    In our scenario the seller is the main bad actor. He may not be the criminal, himself, but he’s working for the criminal. Or maybe he’s a completely innocent 3rd party who is roped in to sell this gun on consignment. That would be better, I’d think. The gun is a completely legit, real firearm that actually exists. But it may or may not actually change hands.

    Seller and buyer may both be in on the scheme -or the same person under separate accounts. Or the buyer could be innocent.

    Our bad actor has 10,000 in profits from his cocaine business that he can’t spend on the street (one can only eat at so many nice restaurants and buy so much jewelry) and he wants to bank it and invest. He’s happy to pay taxes on it he just wants it to be legit money.

    So he gets a nice gun from somewhere, a firearm that has some plausible collectibility but one he can procure for a small fraction of his sale price, or maybe he already owns it, whatever. He gives it to his girlfriend who takes it in to the local dealer for consignment. That way the gun isn’t on the dealers books under his own name.

    Dealer obligingly consigns the gun on Gunbroker with a glowing description. At some point in the auction our buyer places a crazy high bid. Another friend or shill account gets in a “bidding war” with buyer and bids it up so the gun ends up selling for 10k. If legit bidders get in on the action so much the better, it makes it look more legit and he knows his shill bidder will win anyway. And he actually owns the gun so if a real, albeit crazy, legit buyer does somehow think it’s worth 10k and wins the auction, he can bank that 10k of legitimate profit and worry about laundering his ill-gotten gains next week.

    So, the gun is sold, our seller has a public record on the auction site now where his gun sold for 10k. If it’s an innocent fool who won, the fool sends a real check to the gun store who writes one to the criminal or his agent for the amount agreed. If it’s the criminal or his friend who won, he sends the friend into the store in person and he puts down cash. Gun store then writes a clean and totally legitimate check to the criminal for the amount agreed.

    The criminal can then deposit the totally legit check from the dealer and has printouts from Gunbroker and his dealer’s invoice should he ever have to prove to the IRS where that roughly 10k came from.

    Alternatively, the gun need never change hands and a dealer not need be involved. The criminal could list a gun with one fake account (admittedly would not be a dealer but numerous guns are listed on Gunbroker from private sellers), bid up and win the auction from his basement with a couple of other fake accounts and some tech wizardry to hide his real IP address so Gunbroker doesn’t detect it. Then he sends himself a couple of fake emails “hey bro I live in your area of Florida is it ok if I meet you in person and we do this face to face? I could pay with a check?” “Man I’m happy to meet you at Wal Mart parking lot to save myself and you the FFL fees but if we do this in person I need cash and to see a valid drivers license from the state of FL.” “Ok bro sounds good I’ll be there I’m so excited about this awesome gun!”

    He can claim they paid him in cash, take it (really his drug money) to the bank, and deposit it, showing the bank the auction invoice and even the emails if they ask. He’s of course very exact in reporting this to his accountant and paying capital gains tax on it.

    Obviously the more layers (real gun, real FFL, straw consignor, etc) the more scrutiny this would stand up to if the authorities ever investigated, but conversely the more trouble and the more losses in fees.
     
  20. JJFitch

    JJFitch Member

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    Does it come with a couple of boxes of ammo? I'm all in! :)

    At a gun show yesterday I saw one form the 40'a @ $1500, very nice but ???
     
  21. codytrucker

    codytrucker Member

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    A deposit of 10,000 brings IRS attention , 4 deposits of 2,500 doesn't . Price was just OVER 10,000 . If he's trying to avoid scrutiny , he's doing it all wrong.
     
  22. blue32

    blue32 Member

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    Its called structuring, and it does bring attention if it meets requirements under BSA.
     
  23. Riomouse911

    Riomouse911 Member

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    Or triggers a FINCEN report from the bank to the Feds about suspicious transactions.

    Stay safe.
     
  24. RetiredUSNChief

    RetiredUSNChief Member

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    EXACTLY.

    It's easy to get caught up in a bidding war in sites like these, be it gun sites like gunbroker or non-gun sites like ebay.

    Unless there's a real good reason for me to continue bidding, I'll make one bid and that's IT. If it doesn't win...oh, well.
     
  25. kenwjones

    kenwjones Member

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    Hi folks, long time lurker and first time poster. Seems every gun shop in Connecticut knows about this 10k Marlin as well as half the internet. I personally know the seller (albeit not well, but I know who he is, and have seen him twice in other gun shops since this sale happened). Here's what he said about it...

    So the seller is an older guy (75 or 76) who is a picker. He goes around and buys up stuff then cleans the guns (and most likely waxes them) and takes nice photos and then puts them on Gunbroker. This particular Marlin he bought from a shop here in CT for 750.00.

    It's hardly NOS, it's been fired. He claims everything is "Minty", which isn't even a word. It probably looks "Minty" till the Renaissance wax wears off. If you zoom in on those photos, you can see light scratches on the receiver and dings in the furniture.

    When talking to him and listening to the story of this auction, he has no clue how or why it was bid up this high. He also noted the guy that bought it, had also recently bought other super overpriced guns, based on what he could see on the guy's feedback on Gunbroker. Following the auction, the buyer did supply FFL information and did tell him he was dropping a bank check in the mail within the next few days. So, it does look like he will end up getting paid for it.

    It's pissed off just about every gun shop in the state, and for good reason. A lot of shops have now "cut him off" and won't sell him anything other than at what the price tag says, since this guy is always beating up people for deals - so he can turn around and make a profit. News travels fast.

    As to the money laundering aspect, I can say with certainty that the seller isn't involved in that but it doesn't mean the buyer isn't. Perhaps the buyer is overpaying, to turn around and sell it to someone for the same money, thus somehow laundering the money between them or evading income tax. I just don't know. It's certainly a weird situation. Just thought I'd share what I know.

    Ken
     
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