Please please please.. don't do this. THINK before you act.

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I think we've all known people like that. They just can't help themselves.

I think it's also worth saying that just because you have a gun doesn't mean you have to come to anyone's rescue. It doesn't even mean you should. Thinking it's automatically your responsibility to inject yourself into such a situation is arrogance on a massive scale. For one thing, most carjackings end without anyone being injured, so you have to ask yourself if you're really helping someone's overall situation if you try to come to the rescue. A concealed carry is primarily for you to defend yourself and your loved ones, not a license to go looking for an excuse to play cops and robbers.

Good to know that the victim survived though, and hopefully he will make a full recovery with no lasting effects. And hopefully that will cause the courts to go easy on the shooter and he will learn his lesson without having his life ruined.
 
It's a simple mindset issue.

Correct Mindset: I am carrying a gun which I will use only as a last resort when nothing else will work.
Incorrect Mindset: I am carrying a gun and looking for ways that I can legally use it to fight crime.
 
Wrong mindset for sure.

Given his background and his current work I wonder if he wasn't in an overly "tacticool" mindset.

It's a good thing it wasn't an actual robbery as he would've shot the victim. Anyone notice the spread on that car? One would assume to be able to see what's going on in the car you'd have to be pretty close. 10 shots and the only one that makes contact hits the would be victim.

I hope we hear more details about this story as I am actually kind of interested if there is anything more to it.
 
On the surface, a tragedy of mistake. And these things are going to happen. Sure everyone who is sane would want to avoid something like this, however, I would say that it is going to happen every once in a while. Regardless of whether you are a regular citizen or a peace officer. You come across two people or more, and it immediately appears that someone is the victim of a robbery, deadly assault whatever it happens to appear to be, and you have a choice of acting in the moment or not. Peace officers have shot and killed peace officers in related subject incidents. If this guy genuinely believed what he was seeing was an armed robbery, believed that the "victim" was in deadly peril, and acted on that I would not render a guilty vote on a jury at his trial.
 
If this guy genuinely believed what he was seeing was an armed robbery, believed that the "victim" was in deadly peril, and acted on that I would not render a guilty vote on a jury at his trial.

Actually I think the charges will be dropped or watered down (criminal negligence maybe.) He can be sued though in civil court to boot.

Oh, and another thing. He fired TEN SHOTS... one hit. Makes you wonder.

Deaf
 
Actually I think the charges will be dropped or watered down (criminal negligence maybe.) He can be sued though in civil court to boot.

Oh, and another thing. He fired TEN SHOTS... one hit. Makes you wonder.

Deaf
In Texas, if you act in the belief that a robbery, attempted rape, kidnapping etc was in progress you have immunity from civil suits. That legislation was passed just a year or two ago IIRC.

And as to the number of hits, and outcome, let's not be too harsh. Stockton police fired over 600 rounds at some fleeing robbery subjects - with a hostage - not so long ago. The police killed the hostage - shot her dead. Two of the three subjects managed to get away (for awhile). Anyone who wants to verify that just google: robbery police hostage Holt-Singh Stockton. You can get the whole story on there, it is not for debate here. I merely cite it to make the point that this guy's actions ought to be fairly judged.

I am not going to reply to any responses on THAT incident. But I raise it to keep this incident in perspective. This well meaning guy is in a hot seat that anyone could find themselves in
 
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On the surface, a tragedy of mistake. And these things are going to happen. Sure everyone who is sane would want to avoid something like this, however, I would say that it is going to happen every once in a while. Regardless of whether you are a regular citizen or a peace officer. You come across two people or more, and it immediately appears that someone is the victim of a robbery, deadly assault whatever it happens to appear to be, and you have a choice of acting in the moment or not. Peace officers have shot and killed peace officers in related subject incidents. If this guy genuinely believed what he was seeing was an armed robbery, believed that the "victim" was in deadly peril, and acted on that I would not render a guilty vote on a jury at his trial.
dosent texas have one of those "A reasonable person would believe" statutes like other states, the same thing police are supposed to be guided by? Can any "reasonable person" see a gun and start firing indiscriminately (the entire car was shot up) at everyone in the general direction of the gun? I don't see how he could be acquitted, unless there is a lot more information. Here in Wa police have famously shot people and cars for far less, and been acquitted or never tried, so maybe, but hard to see.
 
It would be nice if we could keep this on topic and not bring into the mix LEO or peace officers. They have a DUTY to look for and intervene in such situations. It's their job.

As citizens who CCW we do NOT have a duty to intervene. This is an example of why we should be EXTREMELY cautious of intervening as a third party in situations like this.
 
dosent texas have one of those "A reasonable person would believe" statutes like other states, the same thing police are supposed to be guided by? Can any "reasonable person" see a gun and start firing indiscriminately (the entire car was shot up) at everyone in the general direction of the gun? I don't see how he could be acquitted, unless there is a lot more information. Here in Wa police have famously shot people and cars for far less, and been acquitted or never tried, so maybe, but hard to see.
Texas statutes often include the terms a "reasonable and prudent" person.

We do not know what the time lapse was between when this guy first laid eyes on the two together, making his judgement, and acting. One of the greatest problems with intervening where you believe a crime is being committed with a firearm is what is going to be your first act. Are you going to challenge the one(s) you believe are the badguy(s) verbally, and risk one or more of them instantly subjecting you to a hail of bullets in the hope they will miss and you can stop them? Or having made the judgement someone else's life is in peril, I am by simple proximity in peril - I am not going to increase that peril, and act accordingly.
 
It would be nice if we could keep this on topic and not bring into the mix LEO or peace officers. They have a DUTY to look for and intervene in such situations. It's their job.

As citizens who CCW we do NOT have a duty to intervene. This is an example of why we should be EXTREMELY cautious of intervening as a third party in situations like this.
I am going to reply to this once.

They intervened alright. Recklessly. They fired 600 plus rounds, and killed a hostage. I've been in that business, the certification, SWAT team, four and a half years, thirty years ago. Going to leave it at that. I brought it up to keep this guy, the topic subject guy's actions in perspective: you can not hold private citizens to some arbitrary standard above public servants. So yes, it is relevent.
 
Yeah, we weren't there, but it's pretty clear no dialogue was exchanged, he just lit the car up in what looks like, from the pattern, a panic.

Maybe the guy in the car with the gun inadvertently pointed it at the guy outside, checking sights or grip feel or something....who knows.
 
This well meaning guy is in a hot seat that anyone could find themselves in...
Only if we believe that anyone who sees two persons in a car with a gun will open fire, shooting a number of times (probably emptying their gun based on the capacity of typical carry pistols) and hitting the person they believed to be in danger in the process.

Anyone who calls the police on their cellphone and provides a license plate number and description rather than opening fire wouldn't find themselves in this situation.

Anyone who challenges the persons in the car rather than opening fire wouldn't find themselves in this situation.

Anyone who places their shots carefully enough to hit their intended target wouldn't find themselves in exactly this situation although in this case, even that would have been problematic given that both persons in the car were innocent.

Well meaning or not, if you shoot at a person who is innocent there's a major problem and a person who does such a thing should expect to be in the "hot seat" at least initially, regardless of the other circumstances.

Well meaning or not, if you end up shooting the person you intend to defend, there's a major problem and regardless of the circumstances, such a thing is going to be legally problematic, at least from a civil suit standpoint and possibly from a criminal standpoint.
In Texas, if you act in the belief that a robbery, attempted rape, kidnapping etc was in progress you have immunity from civil suits.
This law, is, to my knowledge untested. I asked a lawyer who studies such topics about the law at a legal seminar and his comment was that it wasn't clear precisely what would satisfy the legal requirement for triggering the immunity clause. Is the decision not to indict sufficient? It wasn't clear. Is the decision not to prosecute sufficient? It's not clear. Is an acquittal in a murder case sufficient? Probably, but it's not been tested.

Finally, even if you can show you have immunity, that will still require hiring a lawyer and going to court to prove that the law applies to you. It's not like a magic shield that prevents anyone from suing you. It just means that if you can bring evidence to show that it applies, the suit will be dismissed.

By the way, the law doesn't just say one must believe a capital crime must be taking place, it says that the belief must be reasonable. It also says that a reasonable person must believe that there's no other alternative than deadly force to resolve the situation.

Here's another nasty wrinkle from the TX Penal Code.

Sec. 9.05.  RECKLESS INJURY OF INNOCENT THIRD PERSON. Even though an actor is justified under this chapter in threatening or using force or deadly force against another, if in doing so he also recklessly injures or kills an innocent third person, the justification afforded by this chapter is unavailable in a prosecution for the reckless injury or killing of the innocent third person.

This means that the reckless injury of a third person is NOT justified under section 9 of the Penal Code and therefore does NOT qualify for the civil immunity clause under any circumstances.
 
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This incident makes the antis argument against CCW for them.

Who knows what was in his head. I hope he gets a long prison term to reflect on it though.

His biography on his employer's website says he was a Specialist in the 3d Ranger Battalion. So we are talking an E4. Not a lot of leadership experience at that rank even in the Ranger Regiment.

I'm not going to speculate on what was going through his head. It's not really material to the case. For some reason he decided to hose down a car with 10 rounds from a pistol.

1.Bad judgement for deciding to intervene in a situation he was clueless about.

2. Terrible judgement in choosing to unload on someone in an automobile with a handgun. If it had been an actual robbery, his chances of successfully engaging a bad guy through auto glass and sheet metal are pretty low.

I'm not really surprised he accidentally hit the driver. Bullets do funny things when they go through things like autoglass and the layers of steel of various gauges and plastic and insulation that make up the modern automobile. I spent a very educational day on the department range several years ago shooting up a car. The only time you should engage someone in an automobile with small arms is when it's absolutely the last resort.
 
Only if we believe that anyone who sees two persons in a car with a gun will open fire, shooting a number of times (probably emptying their gun based on the capacity of typical carry pistols) and hitting the person they believed to be in danger in the process.

Anyone who calls the police on their cellphone and provides a license plate number and description rather than opening fire wouldn't find themselves in this situation.

Anyone who challenges the persons in the car rather than opening fire wouldn't find themselves in this situation.

Anyone who places their shots carefully enough to hit their intended target wouldn't find themselves in exactly this situation although in this case, even that would have been problematic given that both persons in the car were innocent.

Well meaning or not, if you shoot at a person who is innocent there's a major problem and a person who does such a thing should expect to be in the "hot seat" at least initially, regardless of the other circumstances.

Well meaning or not, if you end up shooting the person you intend to defend, there's a major problem and regardless of the circumstances, such a thing is going to be legally problematic, at least from a civil suit standpoint and possibly from a criminal standpoint.This law, is, to my knowledge untested. I asked a lawyer who studies such topics about the law at a legal seminar and his comment was that it wasn't clear precisely what would satisfy the legal requirement for triggering the immunity clause. Is the decision not to indict sufficient? It wasn't clear. Is the decision not to prosecute sufficient? It's not clear. Is an acquittal in a murder case sufficient? Probably, but it's not been tested.

Finally, even if you can show you have immunity, that will still require hiring a lawyer and going to court to prove that the law applies to you. It's not like a magic shield that prevents anyone from suing you. It just means that if you can bring evidence to show that it applies, the suit will be dismissed.

By the way, the law doesn't just say one must believe a capital crime must be taking place, it says that the belief must be reasonable. It also says that a reasonable person must believe that there's no other alternative than deadly force to resolve the situation.

Here's another nasty wrinkle from the TX Penal Code.

Sec. 9.05.  RECKLESS INJURY OF INNOCENT THIRD PERSON. Even though an actor is justified under this chapter in threatening or using force or deadly force against another, if in doing so he also recklessly injures or kills an innocent third person, the justification afforded by this chapter is unavailable in a prosecution for the reckless injury or killing of the innocent third person.

And right below it.

Sec. 9.06. CIVIL REMEDIES UNAFFECTED. The fact that conduct is justified under this chapter does not abolish or impair any remedy for the conduct that is available in a civil suit.
Challenging, as I mentioned above, would in about any case, be unwise. Most thugs engaged in a crime with a firearm in hand will often impulsively shoot right off the bat.

The immunity legislation would not cover the reckless injury or death to an innocent bystander.

As tragic as they are these things are going to happen. It's happened with peace officers shooting Innocent bystanders, hostages, wrong addresses - uniformed shooting off duty officers, and it is going to happen with permit holders and open carriers. There is going to be a similar attrition rate. We are a nation of well over 300 million people; the law of averages applies to the private - as well as the public sector.
 
Challenging, as I mentioned above, would in about any case, be unwise.
It might be, however a person who did that wouldn't find themselves in the same situation as our hero did. Besides, that's only one of the three possibilities I listed that didn't include opening fire indiscriminately and ultimately shooting the person being defended. And there are others that I didn't list.

The point is that it's not really accurate to say that "anyone" could find themselves in this situation. There are any number of ways this person could have responded that wouldn't have resulted in the highly undesirable outcome we find ourselves discussing.
As tragic as they are these things are going to happen.
Yes they are. But that doesn't mean we should gloss over such incidents when they happen or try to make light of them. Any time the outcome of a situation is diametrically opposite of the intended goal, it's important to analyze the situation to determine what went wrong and how to prevent, or at least minimize, similar future occurrences.
The immunity legislation would not cover the reckless injury or death to an innocent bystander.
Right. And since the person injured was the person being defended, it is an injury to an innocent bystander. All that remains is for the courts to determine if it was reckless, and frankly, given the circumstances, that probably won't be an unlikely determination.
 
It would be nice if we could keep this on topic and not bring into the mix LEO or peace officers. They have a DUTY to look for and intervene in such situations. It's their job.

As citizens who CCW we do NOT have a duty to intervene. This is an example of why we should be EXTREMELY cautious of intervening as a third party in situations like this.
Well, some people believe there is a moral obligation to defend the weak and defenseless. Public servants simply get paid to do it - when they happen to be there at the time.
 
It might be, however a person who did that wouldn't find themselves in the same situation as our hero did. Besides, that's only one of the three possibilities I listed that didn't include opening fire indiscriminately and ultimately shooting the person being defended. And there are others that I didn't list.

The point is that it's not really accurate to say that "anyone" could find themselves in this situation. There are any number of ways this person could have responded that wouldn't have resulted in the highly undesirable outcome we find ourselves discussing.Yes they are. But that doesn't mean we should gloss over such incidents when they happen or try to make light of them. Anytime the outcome of a situation is diametrically opposite of the intended goal, it's important to analyze the situation to determine what went wrong and how to prevent, or at least minimize similar future occurrences.
Yes, public or private sector, anyone could - and many have - find themselves in a place like that.
 
Yes, public or private sector, anyone could - and many have - find themselves in a place like that.
Many HAVE and many will, but that is not the same thing as "anyone could". It's really simple. If a person doesn't intervene with deadly force, then that person will not find themselves in a situation like that. If a person calls the police instead of opening fire then they won't find themselves in a situation like that. CLEARLY there are steps that people can take to absolutely, categorically, without any shadow of a doubt, prevent themselves from being in such a situation.

So no. It is incorrect to say that "anyone could" find themselves in such a situation. They will only find themselves in such a situation if they make a series of decisions which result in them screwing up and shooting someone they want to defend. Anyone who wants can easily avoid it. But not if they also want to intervene with deadly force. If one is compelled to intervene with deadly force ONLY then do they run the risk of shooting the wrong person.

Yes, it is true that anyone who intervenes in a situation by employing deadly force could find themselves in a situation like this. But that's a pretty limited set of circumstances. That's hardly the same thing as being able to say it could happen to anyone.
Well, some people believe there is a moral obligation to defend the weak and defenseless.
Frankly, if someone's sense of moral obligation to protect me results in their firing in my general direction 10 times and hitting me in the process, I'd MUCH rather they minded their own business.

I'm all for defending the weak and defenseless, but this is quite obviously a horrible example of how to do that. In fact, it's a perfect example of how NOT to do that.

You mentioned that challenging the "robber" in this situation might be unwise. The problem is that this is arguing from both sides of the aisle. It's unwise from the perspective of the safety of the shooter, but remember, that's not his primary goal. If it was, he would have just gotten out of there. He decided to take on the responsibility of protecting someone he sees as defenseless.

It was his decision to shoulder that responsibility and he needs to take it seriously. That means that he may need to put himself in danger to effectively and safely resolve the situation--by, for example, challenging the person he thinks might be a robber rather than just shooting.

It does NOT mean that his sense of moral obligation clears the path for him to empty his carry gun in the general direction of both the bad guy and the person he's defending.
 
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John,
If in all cases, in your lifetime, it's call 911, and you sleep good at night, go with it.

At least with this guy, he hit the bystander after firing 10 shots with one going astray as it were - not 600+.
 
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At least with this guy, he hit the bystander after firing 10 shots with one going astray as it were - not 600+.
My goal is to do the best that I can.

It would be simpler to rationalize my screw-ups by finding someone who has screwed up even worse, but that's not how I approach life.
If in all cases, in your lifetime, it's call 911, and you sleep good at night, go with it.
It's hard for me to imagine a more useless response.

Do you think that the shooter, driven by his sense of moral obligation will sleep well tonight, knowing he has shot an innocent man?

This part is really, really simple.

The wrong guy got shot.
Someone got shot in a situation where no one should have gotten shot at all.
Someone shot their carry gun when they shouldn't have.
Someone shot someone with their carry gun when they meant to protect him.
That's bad and it shouldn't happen.

This part is not so simple.

Since we all carry guns, it would be very smart for us to see if we can look at what went wrong, how it went wrong, and to try to learn lessons from it. Lessons that might help us prevent, or at least reduce the chances of, our screwing up in a similar manner. That is productive and that should be our goal.

Saying it could happen to anyone is not productive. There are, as I've pointed out, ways to completely prevent it from happening. Sometimes calling 911 might be the best choice and it completely prevents the possibility of shooting the wrong person because there's no shooting at all taking place. Sometimes deadly force may be the only reasonable alternative, but now things are more complicated because once the shooting starts, there's always the chance of someone getting hurt who shouldn't. But that's real life. Real life is complicated. Real life sometimes requires hard decisions that can have terribly negative outcomes if the decision is wrong. In this type of situation, those who must have a simple answer are going to be much better served with the simple answer of: "Call 911." than the simple answer of: "Do whatever your sense of moral obligation tells you to." If you doubt it, look at the case under discussion.

Saying that we don't need to worry because we'll have civil immunity is not productive. For one thing, it's not generally true. For another, if our goal is to live up to our sense of moral obligation, then shooting the wrong person is obviously NOT a way to achieve our goal, even if we aren't sued as a result.

Trying to dismiss further discussion by implying that those who advocate caution when intervening with deadly force simply aren't moral enough isn't productive. The fact is that sometimes even a strong sense of moral obligation to intervene needs to be tempered with an understanding of how wrong things can go if a person makes the wrong decision. It is NOT always true that it's better to do SOMETHING than nothing. In this case, it would have obviously been far better had the shooter done nothing at all. People who can't understand that sometimes the wisest course of action is to do nothing at all shouldn't be carrying firearms.

Does that mean we should never intervene? No, but it does mean that extreme care is required to insure a positive outcome because it's so easy and there are so many ways to screw up. It doesn't meant that once we decide to intervene it's ok to stop thinking, draw and start directing rounds in the general direction of the threat because we're acting out of a sense of moral obligation, or because we believe we won't be sued, or because we think that shooting the wrong person can happen to anyone.

While it's easy to see that something went wrong, it's much harder to see the lessons to be learned and to understand how to apply those lessons in our own lives. But that's part of the responsibility that we take on when we choose to go armed.
 
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