loadedround
Member
HSO, I too, as others have stated, like your condensed, edited version. You most have been one of my English teachers in your past life. 
Please review - No Guns Response Letter
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Scott Farkus
Member
In my state, Texas, the Penal Code specifies the exact wording of a written notice that must be posted in order for a business to prohibit concealed carry on its premises. Ironically enough, it's Penal Code section 30.06, so we refer to them as "30-06 signs". No joke.
Anyway, what it boils down to is that "gun buster" or "No Guns Allowed" signs mean absolutely nothing in Texas. With certain specified exceptions for things like bars and courthouses, the only thing that matters as far as signage is the 30.06. If it's not there in the EXACT form the law specifies, you have not been given notice and you may legally carry concealed, at least unless and until oral notice is given, and there are specific statutes about that also.
I don't know what state you're in, but if yours has a similarly specified sign in your statutes, and a business does not post it, you are probably good to go and I would strongly recommend you refrain from pointing it out to the business owner. You are not responsible for educating him on the law, and if you do, he's liable to put up a legal sign, and then you're really screwed (and that's when you write your letter). Or, you might also consider that he does in fact know what he's doing and he puts up the "gunbuster" knowing full well that he's still allowing concealed carry but he's falsely appeasing the anti's at the same time - the best of both worlds.
Just food for thought. Your state may recognize "gunbusters" or whatever, so this obviously wouldn't apply.
Anyway, what it boils down to is that "gun buster" or "No Guns Allowed" signs mean absolutely nothing in Texas. With certain specified exceptions for things like bars and courthouses, the only thing that matters as far as signage is the 30.06. If it's not there in the EXACT form the law specifies, you have not been given notice and you may legally carry concealed, at least unless and until oral notice is given, and there are specific statutes about that also.
I don't know what state you're in, but if yours has a similarly specified sign in your statutes, and a business does not post it, you are probably good to go and I would strongly recommend you refrain from pointing it out to the business owner. You are not responsible for educating him on the law, and if you do, he's liable to put up a legal sign, and then you're really screwed (and that's when you write your letter). Or, you might also consider that he does in fact know what he's doing and he puts up the "gunbuster" knowing full well that he's still allowing concealed carry but he's falsely appeasing the anti's at the same time - the best of both worlds.
Just food for thought. Your state may recognize "gunbusters" or whatever, so this obviously wouldn't apply.
Pizza Hut has the gun-buster signs in Wisconsin-not in North Dakota. I am not certain on this point, but I believe ND state law preempts such prohibitions. Don't risk anything on my say-so, though. I've never seen sucha sign in ND in 20+ years of CC.
Applebee's also has a no-guns policy, but interestingly enough, I've been to a few Applebee's here (WI) that had no such sign in the door. I suspect it might be up to the Franchisee in some cases?
No sign on either chains in my part of TN.
RX-178
Member
I don't know if what I'm about to add is strictly on topic or not, but here's one of my experiences in dealing with a no-gun sign. Because of the way they handled it when I asked, I'm not going to out the establishment or location, but I am going to tell you what they told me.
What the establishment owner told me was that he deliberately chose to use a non-binding sign (a simple gunbuster silhouette sign, in the state of Texas, with no 30.06 anywhere on the premises), because having a concealed carry permit himself, he expected that anyone with a Texas CHL would have passed the written test, including the informtion regarding the 30.06 sign.
His logic was, that legal CHL holders, being knowledgeable on carry laws, would see that the sign is non-binding, and carry in his establishment anyway. People without CHLs, being ignorant of Texas law, would see the sign and feel more comfortable because of the little bit of security theater.
I'm not saying whether I agree or disagree here, just saying what I was told when I asked.
What the establishment owner told me was that he deliberately chose to use a non-binding sign (a simple gunbuster silhouette sign, in the state of Texas, with no 30.06 anywhere on the premises), because having a concealed carry permit himself, he expected that anyone with a Texas CHL would have passed the written test, including the informtion regarding the 30.06 sign.
His logic was, that legal CHL holders, being knowledgeable on carry laws, would see that the sign is non-binding, and carry in his establishment anyway. People without CHLs, being ignorant of Texas law, would see the sign and feel more comfortable because of the little bit of security theater.
I'm not saying whether I agree or disagree here, just saying what I was told when I asked.
BamAlmighty
Member
"criminals don't respect laws, why would you think they will respect a sign?"
TrickyDick
Member
My wife works at an Applebees here in Maine; one day someone open carried, and her coworkers were tweeking, until she let them know that it was completely legal to open carry in our state...
IllHunter
Member
Just one word...
Use "good citizen" instead of "good guys". More mature sounding and reeks of responsibility and the Constitution.
Use "good citizen" instead of "good guys". More mature sounding and reeks of responsibility and the Constitution.
Sometimes there is another reason.. Ignorance
There is a small bar a friend and I went into in a small town in Mn that had an illegal (according to Mn law) No guns allowed sign (not correctly worded and size). We asked the owner about the sign as the person told us they thought they were required to have the sign. We explained what the law says in Mn and that it is the perogative of the owner as to whether or not they want to restrict law abiding citizens or not. So, sometimes business owners may just not know what the law says.
ps: I have not be back there to see if it is gone or not.
There is a small bar a friend and I went into in a small town in Mn that had an illegal (according to Mn law) No guns allowed sign (not correctly worded and size). We asked the owner about the sign as the person told us they thought they were required to have the sign. We explained what the law says in Mn and that it is the perogative of the owner as to whether or not they want to restrict law abiding citizens or not. So, sometimes business owners may just not know what the law says.
ps: I have not be back there to see if it is gone or not.
Tcruse
Member
There is an issue of liability. When you remove the ability of the customer to protect them selves in your business are are assuming moew of the role of protecting them. Should you fail to protect them then the business should be held accountable.
Twmaster
Member
Care to cite case law on that?
Lost Sheep
Member
Thomas Paine "Thoughts On Defensive War" 1775:
"Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them."
A "no guns allowed" sign says to potential robbers that everyone in (and leaving) your establishment is easy prey.
Lost Sheep
"Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them."
A "no guns allowed" sign says to potential robbers that everyone in (and leaving) your establishment is easy prey.
Lost Sheep
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Yelovitz_503
Member
I like your version, but I think hso gets to the point a bit faster. Honestly I like both, it's up to you.
Maybe add something about how you are able to carry into banks, post offices, airports (until the checkpoint), and movie theaters. Why does their business feel that it's somehow at a greater security risk than these places? This is something I wonder but it may prove too antagonistic to get your point across effectively.
Maybe add something about how you are able to carry into banks, post offices, airports (until the checkpoint), and movie theaters. Why does their business feel that it's somehow at a greater security risk than these places? This is something I wonder but it may prove too antagonistic to get your point across effectively.
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