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Plot thickens regarding Wi hunter incident.

Discussion in 'Legal' started by bg, Nov 23, 2004.

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  1. bg

    bg Member

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    When you find out, let me know..
    Got this over the wire..You'll take note the AP makes sure all know it was
    an SKS, caliber, operation type, etc. Usually its the gen "assault weapon"
    tag. The anti's will play this up to the tilt..
    http://www.yahoo.com/s/221519
     
  2. R.H. Lee

    R.H. Lee Member

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    He's making a self defense claim:
    http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=276782
     
  3. cslinger

    cslinger Member

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    I don't claim to have all the facts but here is what I think I know.

    The people killed were killed at varying ranges and many were shot in the back.

    The hunters only had one firearm among them.

    These two things alone sort of say to me that our boy went on a bit of a killing spree. It just doesn't look like self defense.

    AGAIN THIS IS JUST HOW I AM INTERPRETING WHAT INFO I CURRENTLY HAVE. I AM NOT SAYING GIVE THE GUY THE CHAIR WITHOUT A FAIR TRIAL. It doesn't look good for the Hmong though.
     
  4. John Hicks

    John Hicks Member

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    Devil's Advocate:
    Say he was shot at first and they (victims) had escalated the situation by surrounding him and yelling racial slurs. His claim of self defense applies to the shooter and the people immediately around him.

    People fleeing or who were obviously unarmed are no longer a threat and the self-defense argument goes out the window.

    It would be the same as if the cops show up at your house with the burglar halfway out the door and shot in the back. Tough circumstances to be sure, but does not look good for the shooter.

    I agree with the assessment that this guy just totally lost his $^!t

    That being said, I hope he rots in prison.

    jh
     
  5. spacemanspiff

    spacemanspiff Senior Member

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    i'm conflicted here, and will continue to be until (if) the entire story is told.

    if the hmong guy is truthfully telling his side of the story, then it appears as if he had left the situation after confronted and called racial slurs, and only returned fire after they shot at the ground.
    but thats where i stop having sympathy for him. maybe he could argue he panicked and assumed they all had weapons, i dont know.
    if the group did indeed fire upon him, then i think the group holds the greater share of the blame.

    however, if he is lying, then he did it in cold blood. he got multiple hits, on fleeing targets. he obviously knows his weapon.

    but there are too many details missing.
     
  6. rick_reno

    rick_reno member

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    Here is what CNN is reporting -

    One of the men approached the intruder and asked him to leave, as Crotteau and the others in the cabin hopped on their all-terrain vehicles and headed to the scene, according to the account.

    "The suspect got down from the deer stand, walked 40 yards, fiddled with his rifle. He took the scope off his rifle, he turned and he opened fire on the group," Meier said.

    One of the men called for help on his radio, and those who arrived to help also were shot, authorities said.

    He was "chasing after them and killing them," Deputy Tim Zeigle said. "He hunted them down." There was only one firearm among the eight hunters and it was unclear whether anyone returned fire, authorities had said.
     
  7. 2nd Amendment

    2nd Amendment member

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    It's really a moot point. The two survivors aren't going to back up the shooter's version. We have dead victims shot in the back and only one rifle among them. It comes down to nothing more than his word against that of his victims, with six corpses pointing their fingers at him. The jury, and I, will believe whatever the victims say.
     
  8. milcaztra

    milcaztra Member

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    I have little doubt that a few insults and racial slurs were thrown. Pack mentality is a powerful thing. So is ego and anger, but they don't justify all the killings.

    The press has a way of not getting the facts right. Facts printed in the paper that I don't trust:
    "Quotes" of police officers,
    Facts on the crime scene -- number of weapons,
    Any description of the events from either side.
     
  9. itgoesboom

    itgoesboom member

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    Where do I sign up to sit on this guys jury??

    Honestly, I have a feeling they are going to ask for a change in venue in this case.

    I.G.B.
     
  10. Jim March

    Jim March Member

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    I have this possibility going through my brain that the first shot or two that the guy fired may (MAY!) have been justifiable self defense of some sort, or at least he thought they were (response to a warning shot sounds right) but then he figured that as a minority and solo against a group nobody would believe him, so he started hunting witnesses.

    If that's what he was up to, kill everybody present and just leave, it might have worked except one of the victims radioed for help.

    Like I say, just a theory...but it sorta fits available "facts" (which are pretty damn sketchy).

    I think the odds that ALL the shots he fired were justifiable are extremely low.

    The odds that *any* were justified isn't great either, but I can see an over-reaction to a warning shot being possible.
     
  11. Standing Wolf

    Standing Wolf Member in memoriam

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    Senseless deaths are what they live for.
     
  12. Carlos

    Carlos Member

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    Man, I just don't know what to think. If one shot was fired in the direction of the intimidated and harrassed man, I could see how one could go postal. Doesn't make it right, though.

    Need more input.

    If it were me, and some redneck fired at shot at my feet, I would shoot back to KILL!!! No doubt in my mind.
     
  13. Jim March

    Jim March Member

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    Well yeah, the guy shooting. No question.

    Hunt down all his friends, male and female, who ain't even armed?

    :scrutiny:

    That's not going "postal", it's going "Deliverance". If that's what happened, and the latest seems to be that's what HE'S saying, he's *toast*.
     
  14. SPFDRum

    SPFDRum Member

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    Obviously the local media from Wisconsin and the twin cities isn't making it national.
    Most of the individuals shot where chased down and shot in the back.
    The shooter emptied a 20 round clip
    Now here is the kicker for all the "he must be a victim" crowd- the St Paul Pioneer Press reported that the indivdual had time to remove his scope prior to shooting. Now that would be one cool character to take the time to remove his scope after he had been shot at and return fire. But more likely, he removed his scope for quicker target aquisition while chasing and murdering the hunters.
    From the Pioneer Press
    'It makes no sense'

    As sixth hunter dies, sheriff offers details in attack, but motive remains unknown

    BY TIM NELSON and KEVIN HARTER

    Pioneer Press

    Updated 12:07 p.m., Tuesday, Nov. 23, 2004

    "After walking about 40 yards, Chai Soua Vang began fiddling with his weapon and removed the telescopic sight. Suddenly, he swiveled around and opened fire, wounding Willers. The injured man was able to radio those in the shack and tell them he had been shot."
     
  15. ReadyontheRight

    ReadyontheRight Member

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    http://www.startribune.com/stories/462/5100914.html

    "...According to the documents, this is what Vang told investigators:

    He was lost in the woods and climbed into an unoccupied deer stand. After about 15 minutes, another hunter came upon the scene, told Vang he was on private property and told him to leave. The man summoned his friends via radio. Others showed up, surrounded Vang and started using racial epithets.

    Vang said only one of the people confronting him was armed. Vang said that as he turned to leave, he saw the man with the gun point it at him. Then, Vang said the man fired at him from about 100 feet, with the bullet hitting the ground about 30 feet behind. Vang said he knelt and fired twice. The man dropped.

    Others in the group began to run, some through the woods and others to the ATVs on which they'd arrived. Vang said he fired more shots and others in the group dropped. He said he chased one man (believed to be Joey Crotteau) through the woods, firing as he ran. The man was yelling ''Help me! Help me!'' as he ran. Vang said that when he got to within about 15 feet of him, Vang fired again, and the man fell. Vang said he walked up to the man, heard him groan and then walked away..."

    Maybe the first few shot by Vang were justified. Chasing down fleeing people who are screaming for help is not self-defense. Especially if done by the trespassor.

    This guy's military experience may have kicked-in, but even if his side of the story is 100% correct, he was killing people he knew were defenseless in cold blood.
     
  16. wingman

    wingman Member

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    As our society grows in population we "seem to me" grow more angry in numbers, traffic, gathers such as ballgames, etc. My only thought is never
    confront someone that has a weapon if doing so not in an angry manner.

    Second unless we learn to control our anger in this ever growing population
    we will turn that control over to government losing what little freedom we
    have. :(
     
  17. Jim March

    Jim March Member

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    Yeah, the *best case* scenario here per his own story, if the reporting is accurate, is he went about eliminating witnesses.

    Worst case, it was all murder.
     
  18. ReadyontheRight

    ReadyontheRight Member

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    How is this analogy any different than Vang's own testimony?

    An armed man walks into your front door and sits in your living room easy chair. Your family is in the rec room downstairs. You walk upstairs to get more chips and notice Hmong man in chair. You yell downstairs "hey -- does anyone know this Asian guy with a gun in the living room?" Everyone yells "no" and runs upstairs while you pull out your CCW piece and tell him to leave. As he walks out, your extremely un-PC family yells racial slurs at the man and you fire a warning shot and yell "get moving" because he is moving very slowly and fiddling with his gun.

    He turns and shoots you. He shoots your son. Your family runs and he follows them back into the house -- shooting all 8 of you. Some in the back.

    He calmly walks around the neighborhood until being picked up by the police.

    You might have an extremely racists family and a poor understanding of the right way to use your weapon, but he only had to shoot you and run to be safe. He murdered everyone else.
     
  19. Silver Bullet

    Silver Bullet Member

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    Jeez, I'm sick of people trying to justify their actions by claiming racial slurs as a justification.
     
  20. 2nd Amendment

    2nd Amendment member

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    Yeah...I was trying to avoid just flat saying it but the fact is, I don't care what they called him. Wahh. He was trespassing. Lost? My ass. And if you're lost you're going to climb up in an unknown stand and sit? OK, maybe it's just me but that would not exactly be my first course of action. And as a trespasser he's certainly not the first that has been encountered. It gets old fast, telling people to pack it in, and being insulted often as not

    No, this whole story, and the justifications, reek. He went hunting and didn't care where he was. He got caught, it pissed him off. As he left he decided to get a little even. Maybe the other hunters did call him names. Maybe someone even DID put a rnd in the ground. Know what? Too bad. Better yet, maybe that someone put a rnd in the ground because they saw our soon-to-be-crazed killer removing his scope and had a sick feeling what was about to come down but lacked the conviction/guts to cap him then and there. Ever been in that sort of situation, though not necessarily life and death? I have, and had it been life and death I'd be dead because I lacked the faith in my own instinctive knowledge.

    Ok, I'm rambling and in a bad mood...I'll shaddup now.
     
  21. joab

    joab Member

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    Rambling? Maybe, but that was my first impression when I read the story.
    If there was in fact a round fired by the victim(s). But with modern investigative techniques, as shown on CSI, that will be easy enough to establish
     
  22. P12

    P12 Member

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    Not to cause thread drift here but, is it lawful to hunt with a 20 round mag. in WI?
     
  23. Grey54956

    Grey54956 Member

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    I don't buy the pack-mentality idea, nor the surrounding the intruder and calling him names. This may work on the playground in grade school, but most folks I know wouldn't do this to someone who is carrying a weapon in plain sight. I don't care how many folks you have on your side, you aren't going to do this to an armed man. Likewise, if he's leaving, you aren't going to shoot at him and risk starting something.

    I doesn't make sense.
     
  24. det.pat

    det.pat Member

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    i think that most of these questions will be answered by the forensics. that will tell us whether the victim's rifle had been fired, if a bullet can be found in the ground where the doer said he was standing, etc. until then it's all conjecture.
    pat
     
  25. Daemon688

    Daemon688 Member

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    Everyone seems to claim they know what went down. Just like in the other thread where all the people were mis-reporting the news. We have no idea what words were exactly exchanged. We have no idea the exact sequence of events.

    What we only know for sure is there is one man and six bodies. Anything beyond that is just making assumptions and you know what people say about assumptions. It'll be better to let the people actually on the crime scene to figuire it all out.
     
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