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Pocket Carry Challenge

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics, and Training' started by crebralfix, Apr 28, 2009.

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  1. sm

    sm member

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    Thoughts-

    -Pocket carry is another tool in the toolbox.
    -Pre-grip is another tool in the toolbox.
    -No tool is ever any better than the user of said tool.


    Folks, especially new folks to concealed carry , need to stop and remember, there is no holy grail, or absolute in all of this. There are simply too many variables amongst persons, where they live, environments they must be in, and tasks.

    Bring the work to you, don't go to the work- mentors
    This is something those of you that were apprentices heard so often.
    It does not matter what industry you apprenticed for, it applied, and still does today.

    Simple, if you are working on something, bring in close to you , so you can see it, and have more control with being able to brace yourself.

    Don't have the work "out there" where you all contorted and your human being, gets hand cramps, and stiff necks, and the normal things bones, muscles, and nerves will do, being in a uncomfortable position.

    You bring a plate of food close to you.
    High chairs and booster seats are used for babies and kids...
    Same principle.


    It ain't cheatin' if'n it works- instead called "ingenuity" - mentors.

    You will have to just accept some things I am about to share, because I will not explain myself, as I don't have to, and some things must stay private.

    No disrespect, still have some you folks ever paid attention to how and where some criminals carry weapons?

    Hint: They ain't trying to look or act like TEEM SEEL, or SWAT.

    Yes, some gangs use the gal to carry the gun , loose in a purse and when the signal is given, she moves toward "shooter" who gets the gun, and "put a nine in your arse".

    That gal also may have a gun stuck in her Small of Back, and the shooter, can access a number of ways.

    Gang members are not the only ones that carry in front of pants, without a holster either.
    Most of my dealings have been off mid line, on weak side, for a "cross draw" sorta draw if need.
    If need, the gun can go back to front of pants, and "retention" is done with weak hand, allow strong hand to hit , or whatever needs doing.

    A lot of the retention drills law abiding are taught, means using strong hand to retain gun, leaving weak hand for use.


    I was raised...
    WE cheated.

    High Risk industry, and we cheated big time. Criminals cheat, so why shouldn't we.

    Our clothes were modified. Tailors and seamstresses "tweaked" our clothes.
    Yeah, I/we did not always use a holster.
    The gun was secure, concealed, easy to get a grip on.
    I was taught to draw and shoot weak hand as well. We all were.
    Criminals watch hands, often times they have cased you and know your strong hand.
    They will impede strong side, and will be watching strong side.

    So "maybe" the gun weak side, was not in a "holster" , and you can shoot through the tweaked coat pocket.

    Before the law changed, the "wallet" for a High Standard Derringer, was a neat tool for the tool box. These wallets are not legal now...

    In the movie, Way of The Gun where is James Caan Gun?
    The scene where he steps out, and is asked to show he is not armed.
    He was armed, and he had a gun...
    Hint: He had a firing grip on his gun, when he showed he was not armed.

    One has to access themselves, be brutally honest about what they can and cannot do, and get someone to teach them.
    Then continue with quality practice.


    I will not share some things on a public forum, besides, criminals already know this stuff, just no need to assist a wannabe criminal.

    No, I still do not always use a holster.
    In some of what ...
    For blending in, and giving perceptions, not using a holster was best.

    Sorry, but I was raised with 3 rules of gun safety, hot ranges, big boy rules and whatever else.

    Some THR members have met me, spent time with me, and you would have to ask them if they knew who, what, or where I was carrying concealed.

    I was dressed in jeans, tucked in oxford shirt, no coat.
    I have had more than one gun on person.
    I have had my hand on a gun more than once in various settings, including driving, and riding in a car, and seated in a restaurant.

    The BGs often know more about the where, when and how, of concealed carry, than the law abiding, and will use this against you.
    Granted it depends on the Model of Criminal.

    As some of the criminals have better concealed carry guns, holsters, mag carriers and clothing than law abiding.
    Some...it looks like a IDPA/ISPC/3Gun match going on.
    I have watched this live, and on tape.

    -Don't look like prey, think like a criminal.
    -Think out of the box.
    -Access with brutal honesty
    -Get quality lessons/training, and continue quality practice.

    Just because something works for you,does not mean it will work for me.

    Then again, some of what I was raised with , would get me yelled at.
    My world, so being a rebel, outlaw, crazy, or unconventional was "normal".
    Whatever "normal" is supposed to be.
    I dunno, never have, never expect to know...don't care if you want to know the truth.

    -The more tools in the toolbox, and the more tools one knows how to use, the better equipped they are to handle situations in need of repair.
     
  2. crebralfix

    crebralfix member

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    It's fabricated to illustrate the point that combatives, knife and gun skills are needed. The "culture" that we have tends to be overly gun focused because shooting is perceived to be easier and is forced into the "one solution for all" mentality.

    Again, pocket carry is NOT bad. I do it on occasion, though usually with a BUG. It's just a matter of knowing the limitations.

    Do these drills with a gun on the belt...both in the appendix position and behind the hip. They're ALMOST just as difficult to pull off. I swear my simunitions gun was glued into my holster during these drills...and I was OCing with NO retention!!
     
  3. hardluk1

    hardluk1 member

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    Look guys, pocket carry, center of back or on your hip, under your arm, it is your problem to figure out. I have carried for 26 years or almost. and have never even put a hand my gun for protection but i will when i feel worried about something it will be out quickly ,to me center of back for me would be the worst place to carry right next to hip as i don't wear a coat except ride or winter time and i don't want to learn 2 or 3 ways to carry . That can get you killed just changeing how you do carry for how your dressed. Pick one and stay with it. My right front pocket is my main cc location and if 2 guns are with me my ankle is for the other gun. I carry a small lite 38 in my pocket and when travel'n 32 as backup for the 38. You know what you can't (practice) for ,,, what's going to happen when it really goes sideways. Deal with it...
     
  4. JR47

    JR47 Member

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    His intentions were spelled out in the conditions of the scenario. You can what-if anything, after an answer is presented, but that changes the pre-existing scenario.

    At the normal distances involved in what was presented, accessing an IWB rig isn't going to happen, either. Instead, you'll end up with your hand, and arm, pinned in your clothing, while the attack proceeds. Or not, but THAT wasn't in the original scenario, either.

    CCW is 90% + behind the action-reaction curve. Beginning in Condition White is like that. Even Yellow puts you at a disadvantage. Leaving the gun where it sits, and opening distance solves all of the perceived problems. It may not be manly enough for some, but the less you have to fight, the less the chance that you'll have to bleed.
     
  5. Gunwitch

    Gunwitch member

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    This is why pepper spray is part of my every day carry system.

    While I don't want "man with a gun calls" constantly, I can weak hand brandish mace fairly willy nilly, against even low level questionable threats. Such as panhandlers, groups of guys with attitude problems approaching me to ask what time it is while I am out with my girl etc.

    All the while strong hand is ready to draw as I spray the Pepper as a distraction, if they come at me or go for their own weapon.

    When tasers get small enough I will probably replace the pepper canister with one. Until then though my spray is indisposable as my "threatening" weapon for legal purposes.

    I have had groups of 5 guys scatter and run when I whipped it out. Where had it been my pistol that same group may have decided to do their thing before I felt comfortable getting it out at a legal level.
     
  6. YammyMonkey

    YammyMonkey Member

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    I’m not changing anything about the scenario. The cue for the bad guy to attack is your hand going into your pocket. You asked why would he attack if you’re doing what he wants? He obviously doesn’t want the change, he wants something else & the change request is a ruse. It doesn’t matter what that something else is, you’ve effectively taken one of your hands out of the fight for the time being.

    I agree with you 100% that in this scenario an IWB or any other carry method would not allow you to get your gun before the bad guy gets to you. My point in previous posts was that it’s very easy for him to tie up your dominant hand. How do you think most people will fare with one hand, essentially, tied behind their back?

    In any case, it’s a positional problem, not a weapon problem. You need to get to a position that allows you to access your weapon if appropriate. Trying to go to guns without an advantageous position will get us nowhere.
     
  7. Mad Chemist

    Mad Chemist Member

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    Exactly.

    This seems to need constant repeating, since some folks just don't seem to get it.
     
  8. DAVIDSDIVAD

    DAVIDSDIVAD member

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    I agree with the guy who spoke about judo.

    Anybody who makes a grab for me is taking the short route over my hip/shoulder, and into the ground.
     
  9. mnrivrat

    mnrivrat Member

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    Interesting responses - I pocket carry so I guess my 2 cents is being called for (even if not - I can't resist).

    The first thing that struck me with the original post was "Pocket Carry is Bad, just go through these steps and you will agree".

    Well, the fact is that I recognize there are other methods of carry that are faster , and/or perhaps more desirable than pocket carry. So what ?

    I pocket carry not because I think it is the most desirable way , I do it because it is the best way for me . The way I chose because it works better for me than other methods due to how I dress, etc.

    The circumstance of an encounter will, and can, vary in so many ways that any particular method could have drawbacks in my opinion. But I will agree there are from a pure standpoint better methods than pocket carry.

    But to put it another way, the last time I needed to withdraw my firearm from my pocket, the guys eyes got real big, and his words were "where did that come from ?"
     
  10. JohnBT

    JohnBT Member

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    "Then again, some of what I was raised with , would get me yelled at."

    Right. And arrested in the case of my father's blackjacks and saps. He became a State Trooper shortly after WWII. I suppose I should cut them up and toss them. Come to think of it, I should ask him where he got them.

    John
     
  11. DAVIDSDIVAD

    DAVIDSDIVAD member

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    Honestly, when I pocket carry, it's with big ole' cargo shorts that are easily accessed. They're deep enough for the gun to stay put (even if it is swinging around like a wrecking ball in the pocket) if I have to move around alot.

    I agree though, working out of a holster is much safer.

    lightly off topic: No offense, Steve :), even though I doubt you'll get the reference, but does anybody else think SM has a similar writing style to Rorshach?
     
  12. Armed N. Free

    Armed N. Free Member

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    Survival is the bottom line, I'll explain myself to the DA later. We just has a kid in town lured to a creek by "friends" to "hang out". When he got there, one "friend" attacked him. He defended, but was grabbed by "friend" #2 and dragged into the creek where he was held underwater in an attempt to drown him. The victim drew a knife (talk about keeping your head) and made contact anywhere he could upon his attacker. He ended up killing his attacker and escaping. Now murder charges have been filed against him. Disgusting huh? (ref www.ncnewsonline.com - search Tommy Nail)

    Anyhow, I can relate to his predicament and all scenarios in the challenge.

    #1 defense - Akido! Anyone ever watched Miss Congeniality? S.I.N.G. (Solar Plexus, Instep, Nose, Groin). Disabling and disarming classes are available from many schools like the courses offered through F.I.R.E. institute (www.fireinstitute.org)

    #2 defense - less than lethal taser/cs mace combo, weak side rear hip IWB

    #3 POCKET CARRY - Stong side front pocket Beretta PX40, with Streamlight TLR-2. Being attacked isn't a quickdraw game - the attacker has already suprised you and has won the speed game. He/she is already "on your X". Use #1 or #2 to break contact and get off the X - establish defensible separation.

    #4 defense - Gerber throwing daggers and combat Knife on weak side ankle. These work well when you feign a heat attack and drop to your knees (especially if your stong arm is behind your back) or your head is being held underwater.:mad:

    If I can make it back to my vehicle, then I retrieve my Beretta CX4 carbine, switch mags and establish a distinct defensive advantage.:evil:
     
  13. The Lone Haranguer

    The Lone Haranguer Member

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    I think it is understood that a gun might be a little slower to access in a pocket. (This is especially true when you're sitting down.) It is a price you pay for being able to have the gun with you when other methods don't work.

    Attention to the size and shape of gun and pockets makes a difference. It is much faster when you have room to acquire a firing grip while your hand is still inside. Also use a pocket holster to keep the gun positioned, and never put anything else in the gun pocket.
     
  14. B yond

    B yond Member

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    I think most people who PC do so because they can't carry in a better position in their situation. I know that's why I PC when I do.



    It's better than nothing.
     
  15. DAVIDSDIVAD

    DAVIDSDIVAD member

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    Throwing knives?

    Are you serious?
     
  16. Jdude

    Jdude Member

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    As a fellow knife thrower, I have to agree with the "are you serious" comment. It is entirely possible that you are supremely skilled and can hit at very short to intermediate ranges with 100% accuracy. However, the intended use of the weapon involves intentional disarmament. The best case scenario involves you literally throwing away your only advantage against an attacker. Maybe you know something I don't, but I cannot see the advantage here.
     
  17. Jdude

    Jdude Member

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    My brother asks "does he feign a heart attack often?" Clutching your chest is the most common result of that, which is not exactly the same as going for your ankle and taking your eyes and exposing vulnerabilities to your opponent.
     
  18. sacp81170a

    sacp81170a Member

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    One thing that hasn't been mentioned here is the advantage a revolver has over a semiauto in a contact distance shooting scenario. Try this exercise with an unloaded gun:

    Get your gun out, jam it into your partner's ribs and pull the trigger. If it's a semiauto, it may very well be shoved out of battery and fail to fire. If it's a revolver, it will function. ;)

    I've done retention training as a law enforcement officer and I can tell you the most dangerous time isn't while your handgun is still in the holster, it's when you have it in one hand while clearing the holster. It makes no difference whether it's pocket carry, IWB, OWB or a level III retention holster, if you don't have enough room to draw it and bring it into action without the BG grabbing it, you're too close to draw it. Use combatives or other tools. Gain distance first. The method of carry has absolutely no bearing on these basic principles. Pocket carry is not automatically bad even though the OP seems to imply this.

    You can mind game it to death, but without some FoF training you're just guessing. This sounds like another case of "I know more than you do" -itis. :rolleyes:
     
  19. Tim Burke

    Tim Burke Member

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    The first rule of knife throwing in a fight:
    1) Don't.
     
  20. B yond

    B yond Member

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    Hey, it works in the movies!
    :rolleyes:
     
  21. Mad Chemist

    Mad Chemist Member

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    Armed and Free wrote:
    "Survival is the bottom line, I'll explain myself to the DA later. We just has a kid in town lured to a creek by "friends" to "hang out". When he got there, one "friend" attacked him. He defended, but was grabbed by "friend" #2 and dragged into the creek where he was held underwater in an attempt to drown him. The victim drew a knife (talk about keeping your head) and made contact anywhere he could upon his attacker. He ended up killing his attacker and escaping. Now murder charges have been filed against him. Disgusting huh? (ref www.ncnewsonline.com - search Tommy Nail)

    Anyhow, I can relate to his predicament and all scenarios in the challenge.

    #1 defense - Akido! Anyone ever watched Miss Congeniality? S.I.N.G. (Solar Plexus, Instep, Nose, Groin). Disabling and disarming classes are available from many schools like the courses offered through F.I.R.E. institute (www.fireinstitute.org)

    #2 defense - less than lethal taser/cs mace combo, weak side rear hip IWB

    #3 POCKET CARRY - Stong side front pocket Beretta PX40, with Streamlight TLR-2. Being attacked isn't a quickdraw game - the attacker has already suprised you and has won the speed game. He/she is already "on your X". Use #1 or #2 to break contact and get off the X - establish defensible separation.

    #4 defense - Gerber throwing daggers and combat Knife on weak side ankle. These work well when you feign a heat attack and drop to your knees (especially if your stong arm is behind your back) or your head is being held underwater.

    If I can make it back to my vehicle, then I retrieve my Beretta CX4 carbine, switch mags and establish a distinct defensive advantage."

    Is this a joke?
     
  22. mgregg85

    mgregg85 Member

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    For situation one why stop with body contact? I've done exercises like you have described with a friend attacking me and me drawing an little airsoft gun from my pocket and I've been able to get a good shot at him(usual with the barrel in contact with the side of this torso) almost every time. Even when he knocked me on the ground I just concentrated on drawing with my right hand and using my left hand to keep him away.

    Pocket carry isn't ideal, I can easily admit that, but it can and does work with good practice. My friend doubted that it would work and he got quite the collection of bruises on his chest and stomach from my airsoft pistol(a baby browning copy, about the size of my P3AT that I usually carry in my pocket).

    We did the same stuff with ankle carry(of which he was highly skeptical) and I was still able to do a contact shot about 75% of the time without him being able to stop me).
     
  23. crebralfix

    crebralfix member

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    Again, the idea is to demonstrate, based upon another thread, the shortcomings of pocket carry...and learn how to mitigate them.

    These are not training exercises. You should have an instructor present for that until you're proficient.

    RE: revolvers

    The issue that came up most frequently (as in 90%+) wasn't placing the muzzle of the gun in contact with the target. The real problem was that flailing limbs and hands would contact the slide at random moments and cause a jam. Call it "active Murphyism" or whatever...there were many jams in the [tangle].

    Granted, the amount of force generated by a Simunition is less than with a live round. Further experimentation would be needed to test this.

    Another problem was the gun grab. Again, the revolver wins in this area if the goal is to have a weapon in operable condition after the hand lets go. HOWEVER, the problem is that the gun is still ready to fire. A semi-auto requires that the slide be manipulated in order to get another round into the chamber. In the [tangle], discharging the weapon to disable it may be necessary (I did it once because that was the best option in that three to five second period).

    So, there are some additional pros and cons to each gun type that should be considered when making the selection.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 10, 2009
  24. crebralfix

    crebralfix member

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    I agree that it's not a quickdraw game...it's a TIMING game. The shooter needs to be able to switch gears between combatives, knife and gun on the move while avoiding target fixation (keeping an eye out for attacker #2). This is a tall order and requires diligent practice. I know my brain turned to mush with so much input the first few rounds. It does get better over time, though. More exposure trains the brain to discard irrelevant input while performing other simultaneous operations. It learns to prioritize at adrenaline speeds. This is one reason why a MONOLOGUE is so important...dialog takes too much time and brainpower and destroys the brain's ability to react to a physical attack.

    This is also why practice with NON-COOPERATIVE opponents is essential. The student already learned the pattern through cooperative training. The non-cooperative opponent includes multiple patterns in unpredictable ways, which starts the mushification process ("get inside their OODA loop"). The student learns through pain (of getting hit or the sting of a Simunition) what works and does not work. The best, most clear demonstration of this occurs in Tom Sotis' AMOK! knife fighting courses. I recommend that you attend one of these seminars to learn the meta-elements of training ("training to train yourself", so to speak).

    Force on force, combatives and knifing are all better preparation for a fight than standing on a square range shooting at static targets. All that target shooting does is to cause us to overestimate our fighting ability. I see a lot of gross overestimation of skills at the ranges; I'm certainly guilty of it.

    The absolutely MOST important lesson I learned in the ECQC course was that honesty is discovered when you're eating dirt. If one cannot be honest about your capability, then you'll never really improve. Tom Gresham mentions this in GunTalk periodically: (paraphrasing from memory) "We get good at shooting targets at seven yards...we tend to get very comfortable with that."
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2009
  25. polekitty

    polekitty Member

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    Hey y'all...rainbowbob

    I almost never go without a jacket---it's my "lifestyle." I can fold my arms (like I'm pondering something really important) and the right hand is behind my left elbow---at least that's where it seems to be. Actually, it's inside my jacket, hand on grip of my 1911, cross draw. I can look as innocent as a little kid like that!
     
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