Police at wrong address kill man who had gun

[epijunkie67]

I don't generally post things like this because of the risk that it will degenerate into a flame war. However, I thought this might merit discussing because of a side issue it raises.

http://news.yahoo.com/video/deputies-shoot-kill-man-knocking-163819466.html

The report is sketchy but so far it appears that deputies were going to serve a warrant on a suspect known to be dangerous. They went to the wrong address. For some reason unknown to us the man that answered the door was armed with a gun. Deputies opened fire and killed him.

In the video they mention that the deputies did not identify themselves as law enforcement but don't mention if they were in uniform. They also say that neighbors speculate he answered the door armed "because of the time of day".

Although it is tragic that an innocent man died I'll withhold thoughts on how right or wrong the deputies were to open fire. This does rise a very good point however that I did want to discuss; the wisdom of answering your door armed.

I live in a decent neighborhood now and have lived in not so decent ones in the past. But decent or not, if someone knocks on my door at 5am I'm probably going to be armed when I answer the door. My front door has a lot of decorative glass in it so I would hope that I would see if the people outside had on uniforms. And I'm sure I would ask who it was before opening the door. But criminals have been known to play dress up for the purpose of gaining access to a persons home.

So say it's 5am or 11 pm and you get a knock on the door by two people you've never seen before. Do you arm yourself? If they identify themselves as police do you open the door? Do you un-arm yourself first? Why or why not?

What are your thoughts on answering your front door armed?

 

[chevyman097]

There has been plenty of thread on this, I assume it will be locked and you will be directed to one.

But before its locked. To answer a specific question about answering the door at strange hours.

I would suggest not opening it untill you know who is there. Yell loudly that you want the other person to identify. Do not open untill they do?

 

[tydephan]

Yeah, a key part to that story was that he "opened the door pointing the gun at the deputies."

Regardless of whether they are law enforcement or not, it's not wise to open a door immediately pointing a gun at someone.

I think it's a good discussion to have, for sure. But I'd be interested to learn more about the deceased and why he may have taken the actions he did.

 

[Mr. D]

IMHO, there is only one way to answer the door when you don't know who is on the other side: armed and call through the door, "who is it?" I say armed because I would be armed anyway - I carry all the time even at home. If for some reason I weren't armed and it were very early or very late, I would arm myself and do the same thing: call through the door. It's the safest way. It's very easy to be surprised and/or overpowered once you open the door.

ETA: while I was typing, chevy and tydephan answered as well and I heartily agree with both their statements.

~D

 

[Sam1911]

The wisdom of being armed when answering the door (especially at 1:30 am!) really isn't in question.

The tactics about how to do so without threatening an innocent person or a confused law enforcement officer are what is in question.

Obviously, "muzzle-first" is simply not appropriate under any circumstances. (If you KNOW you need to point a gun at the guy on the other side of that door, DON'T OPEN THE DOOR!) From watching the video it appears the cops saw him and his gun at just about the same time and shot because they were expecting to meet a violent criminal, and when they saw a man with a gun they had a half-a-split-second to decide that that's exactly who answered the door. It is hard to fault the officers from reacting that way in that moment.

(That does not in any way exonerate them from the fault of not identifying themselves clearly, and not having the right house in the first place! If the snippet of "news" we have here proves to be the totality of the truth, may the guilt hang heavy on them.)

So, identify your visitors clearly before you open the door. Before you approach the door, if at all possible.

Keep your weapon hidden, but ready. Pointing it aggressively at someone who is not threatening you is not one of your rights as a property owner or resident.

 

[shinyroks]

Perhaps an alternative to arming yourself before you answer the door is to have a place near the door where a gun is stashed. Make the people identify themselves, if they are police they should have a valid reason for attempting to contact you. It just doesn't seem wise in any scenario to point a gun out your door at unknown visitors...

A stack up of mistakes occurred here. If any one of the mistakes had not been made, we would not be writing on this thread.

But the reporter is right. If you point a gun at LE, you will be shot. Their only mistakes by what we know from the video is getting to the wrong house, and not announcing themselves. Of course, if they were in uniform that leaves them at one mistake, as this very well could have happened before they got to say a word...

 

[Certaindeaf]

Didn't read the link. Sounds like a "knock and talk". If the cops really have a reason to be there, they'll knock the door down.. no knocking. There's no need to answer the door.

 

[jmorris]

What are your thoughts on answering your front door armed?

If you hop my gate and make it down the lane to ring my door bell, you can bet I'll be armed when I get there.

Assuming that is all there is to the story, I think everyone involved should be charged with 2nd degree murder. Just because you are the law doesn't mean you can break it. What exactly was the man doing that was illegal when he was murdered?

I guess I don't get the whole "show of force". Not to drift but the ATF could have picked up David Koresh alone when they followed him to Super Shops. I guess that doesn't let you flex your tacticle muscle as much as getting a bunch of people (on both sides) killed.

 

[mgmorden]

Only time I've had a similar incident (somebody knocking on my front door at about 2am - particularly strange as I live in the middle of nowhere) I answered the door but hand my revolver in my hand hidden behind the door.

The person at the door certainly didn't seem to suspect that the gun was there and it wasn't needed (it was just an old guy who took a wrong turn and was lost in the woods looking for directions).

Thats the be way to handle it IMHO. Be armed, but don't tip your hand unless it becomes necessary.

 

[fallout mike]

These guys should be charged with murder. They go to the wrong house without identifying themselves at a odd time of day and shoot an innocent person. The way this sounds I would go out on a limb and say the gun was not pointed at them but in his hand hanging by his side. They say it was pointed at them to justify themselves. This could happen to any of us. How incompetent can you be to go to the wrong house to serve a warrant to a violent criminal? That is a pretty big deal. They would already be on edge and nervous, as we see from what happened. They saw a gun and opened fire without ever identifying themselves or making sure they had the right person. There is no excuse for this. Its murder.

 

[shinyroks]

If you hop my gate and make it down the lane to ring my door bell, you can bet I'll be armed when I get there.

Assuming that is all there is to the story, I think everyone involved should be charged with 2nd degree murder. Just because you are the law doesn't mean you can break it. What exactly was the man doing that was illegal when he was murdered?

I guess I don't get the whole "show of force". Not to drift but the ATF could have picked up David Koresh alone when they followed him to Super Shops. I guess that doesn't let you flex your tacticle muscle as much as getting a bunch of people (on both sides) killed.

Unfortunately this doesn't chalk up to a "show of force" give the evidence in the video. Assuming the man was pointing the gun at the LEOs as he opened the door, they have every right to defend their own lives.

 

[Certaindeaf]

So they filmed it? No? Dead men can't really talk so well.

 

[longdayjake]

Nowadays there is no reason that cops should not be going to the right house. This has happened so many times and has resulted in the death of citizen and officer alike. When will they figure it out?

 

[Certaindeaf]

Nowadays there is no reason that cops should not be going to the right house. This has happened so many times and has resulted in the death of citizen and officer alike. When will they figure it out?

You'd think. Over here, not long ago, they changed the 911 dialing system or something.. a new computer system.. and for about six months, the cops were going to the wrong places like crazy. I forget how many millions of boondoggle dollars that one cost and perhaps even lives.

 

[hso]

An important lesson to take away is to have a safe way to see who's at your door before opening it and to identify to them that you've called 911 if there's any suspicion.

You can have a peep or even just a window that allows you to view your door. You don't need to install a camera and video system.

A cell phone allows you to call 911 and let them know that there's someone suspicious, or armed, at your door.

Why open the door and remove that layer of protection?

 

[jmorris]

Unfortunately this doesn't chalk up to a "show of force" give the evidence in the video. Assuming the man was pointing the gun at the LEOs as he opened the door, they have every right to defend their own lives.

This is the problem, even if a dozen of them broke into not only the house but into a locked bedroom then found the guy in a closet with his wife with a gun in one hand an a phone ringing 911 in the other and murdered him there, they still would have claimed self defence. At what point does doing something wrong become illegal?

FWIW I completely agree that the first time an aggressor should know that you have a gun is after they have been shot.

 

[krupparms]

Last year I was sitting in my home &had my pistol on like always! Live in bad place. I heard knock on f. door .I don't have a peephole in door so could not see who it was, I was expecting someone so I open the door. I have a heavy screen door &it was closed. When I open door, no one said who was there. It was city PD. As. I was armed I put my hands out with hands flat on screen door. I then informed them I was armed because they get mad if you do not! Next thing I knew was I was drawn on by the only male PO there! ( 2 female & 1male.).Turned out they were at wrong address & I was not who they were looking for! I was hauled out of my home, was disarmed & had my name & handgun ran thru check. Came back clean. Instead of leaving the male PO decided to search my home! No warrant, no probable cause! When I told him he was tresspassing & asked what probable cause he had, I was told the law of officer survival! After they found nothing they were told to leave. I asked for his supervisor was & had him leave his card. When I called, I was told by supervisor to f-off &get an Atty. So I did &now there are 18 lawsuits against the department most following the same complaint. Now just getting worse around here! L.E. budget just got turned down again because nothing changes! No one wants to pay for bad law enforcement. I was a LEO. & I would have gotten discharged for this kind of behavior! But it seems very common today!

 

[JagerRanger]

I'm with Certaindeaf, I don't open the door - ever.

Should the unknown people with guns decide to enter regardless ... that's a story repeated almost everyday in America. SAD.

 

[Fish Miner]

Got to living in Florida. We always make the news, and usually for the wrong reason. It is a bad situation for sure, and one where the only people who know exactly what happened are the police. IF he really did open the door muzzle first, well, cops gotta do what a cops has to do, wrong house or not.

This is one of those times that a gun camera or helmet camera on a cop would be a good thing. Because if we was just holding the gun and they started shooting thinking they were getting the "bad" guy, that is a bad shoot. Also I would like to know the force with which they knocked. A polite IKOP (International Knock of Peace) or a banging the hell out of it....diff response...

But as others said- don't answer the door. Just that simple...

 

[krupparms]

I do not think this is a reason to bash LEOs. As most do a fine job! This is about training & being a professional. LEOs take big risks every day & because some go bad it is no reason to say that they they all act like that! Some fine LEOs left after waco &other violations of the law. So I must say they do a hard job & that most are fine LEOs! The best thing is to not open the door until you know for sure who is on the other side & call 911 if its LEOs & find out why they are there if you didn't call them!

 

[brboyer]

If you hop my gate and make it down the lane to ring my door bell, you can bet I'll be armed when I get there.

Assuming that is all there is to the story, I think everyone involved should be charged with 2nd degree murder. Just because you are the law doesn't mean you can break it. What exactly was the man doing that was illegal when he was murdered?

[snip]

If you hop my gate and make it down the lane to ring my door bell, you can bet I'll be armed when I get there.

Perfectly fine, as long as you do not point it at anyone.

What exactly was the man doing that was illegal when he was murdered shot?

In Florida, it's called Aggravated Assault -An assault with a deadly weapon without intent to kill.

Point a firearm at anyone, when not in fear death or great bodily harm (or in the lawful performance of your duties as a LEO, or to prevent a forcible felony) and you are committing a forcible felony in Florida. Which authorizes the victim to use deadly force to defend himself.

 

[csa77]

there is no way i believe for a second that the guy opened the door and pointed a gun at an officer. im sure he did open the door and had a gun in his hand tho, its not that uncommon. when i worked for a dock/seawall construction company years ago it happened twice to me....in very wealth neighborhoods too.
i believe the officer made up the part about him pointing the gun just to cover his butt.his cover story wouldn't be needed anyway tho since police never get charged like us civilians

the officer should be forced to take a lie detector test and if it shows he lied then he should be charged with murder

ether way someone is responsible for the guys death since it was the wrong house.

 

[hang fire]

It is now common for fake cops to do home invasions and at the very least, one should have a wide angle peep hole through the door for a visual view..

Our home has very bright sensor lights at all three house entry doors and two at the detached garage which are activated by heat or movement. We have a large picture window next to front door to peek through blinds to see who is there. If cops were to come here late PM or dark thirty AM, there had better be a squad car(s) in the drive or on the street with flashing LEO lights.

If in slightest doubt, the wife would hit the preprogramed 911 button to confirm they are LEO and I would yell through the door she is doing so.

 

[jmorris]

Point a firearm at anyone, when not in fear death or great bodily harm

I'll travel with you on the assumption that he pointed the gun at them. If you had unknown armed guys at your front door would you fear great bodily harm or think the were there to see if you wanted to buy guns?

I have been armed when officers of the law have come to my property before on several occations. Not once have they drawn their firearms, much less shot anyone. Not saying they can't try and do their job, just that they shouldn't shoot "good guys" while looking for the bad ones.

 

[csa77]

If we were to remove the police officer from the equation and make it some random civilian....wouldn't there be a trial by a jury for a case like this.

Why is it nowadays police are held infallible. It infuriates me to no end how police are held above the law