Police Beating in New Orleans Caught on Tape #2 Constructive Criticism ONLY

[rmgill]

So, can someone explain something here. The man was drunk in public, in New Orleans. Umm. Isn't that the whole attraction of the place? People stumble around on Burbon street with open containers of alcohol and spend money. Isn't that what is wanted?

 

[Amusetec]

By assault I assume you mean shoved and yelled at. I didn't see anything more than that. Not something to hang the LEO over.
By the way, was that out of the blue or was the guy getting in too close? I couldn't tell for sure.

If a civilian did that they would be arrested, so why shouldn't a police officer, is he above the law?

 

[No_Brakes23]

I am willing to withhold judgement about the beating of the "drunk", as I was not there, but I HAVE seen how much of a PITA it can be to bring somebody down.

But the abuse of the press, makes it all look very dubious.

I don't wanna LEO bash, but this looks bad at this point.

Regardless of what really happened, the media are gonna try to make it look bad, so knowing that tends to obscure actual wrongdoing on the part of the LEO.

Sure would like to see the whole thing.

 

[Byron Quick]

By assault I assume you mean shoved and yelled at. I didn't see anything more than that. Not something to hang the LEO over.

Please look at the applicable statutes. That WAS assault as defined by statute. And I believe such an act would be within the definition of assault by statute in all of the states of the nation.

No, it's not something to hang the LEO over. If it's a first offense, then he should get no more than probation and a fine. But due to the nature of the offense then his tenure as a LEO-if convicted-should be over. By his own actions he has demonstrated that he does not have the requisites needed for a career in law enforcement. Maybe he needs to apply in some of the rougher bars in town as a bouncer.

If a person wants to enforce the law...that person should be able to obey the law.

He could learn Mandarin and get a job as a policeman in Beijing. He seems to have the proper mindset. I can recognize that he's been through enormous stresses in the past six weeks. But enormous stresses are an inescapable part of being a police officer. Losing control of one's action due to enormous stress is a cluebat that a career in law enforcement in a country that respects the rights of citizens is contraindicated.

That officer is probably a fine man. Involved in his church. Loves his family. Helps little old ladies cross the street. That is immaterial. He's in the wrong line of work. Reality has given him a wake up call. Hopefully his superiors will realize this if he doesn't.

 

[swampsniper]

He might not have been drunk, he says he has arthitis, and walks funny. I keep my forearms scabbed up from catching myself all the time, so I can understand that. The man is a retired school teacher, not some street bum. He may be a very wealthy retired school teacher before long!

 

[c_yeager]

Safe bet: No one criticising the officers trying to arrest the
resisting drunk EVER has had to try arrest a resisting drunk.
Safer bet: If they did, they would probably botch it too.

I have had to deal with more than a few resisting drunks and let me tell you this. I saw an officer punch a suspect in the head while pressed aganst a wall, and at least once while he was already handcuffed. There isnt a technique in the world that calls for such behavior.

Also, that was one of the most piss-poor takedowns i have ever witnessed in my life, and I have coached highschool wrestling. If it wasnt for the uniforms i would have thought that i was watching a bunch of drunks tussling with one-another for all the evident coordination. Did you see the one officer "tackle" the guy by dragging him right on top of himself? Oh, and the old man wasnt resisting on the ground, the arresting officers were all trying to move him in different directions at the same time, with the obvious result of no progress. If you see the tail-end of the film (just saw it on the news) the old man appears to be unconscious at the conclusion (and upon review he might have lost consciousness about halfway through the ground-fighting).

Frankly these guys should stick to picking on old men, if this guy was even REMOTELY capable he would have sent all four of them to the hospital, sans teeth.

There is some indication coming out now that the man in question wasnt even drunk.

More to the point is this: Since when do people get arrested for public intoxication IN THE FRENCH QUARTER?!?!?!?!

 

[Web]

"More to the point is this: Since when do people get arrested for public intoxication IN THE FRENCH QUARTER?!?!?!?!"

Ummm...since a hurricane destroyed the whole city? I don't know, do the events of the past month change anything about how people should be acting IN THE FRENCH QUARTER? At least for now?

 

[No_Brakes23]

Okay, after watching the video, I have to amend my comments.

No LEO friends of mine and no cop I have talked to uses repeated facial strikes to get someone on the ground. The mounted officer appears to be trying to block the camera view of the beatdown.

In the cops favor, the guy IS struggling on the ground.

But the behaviour of the "been here 6 weeks" officer towards the reporter was pure BS. Can't handle the stress? Then quit. That's why it is called "professionalism." No doubt many people would like to tell a nosy reporter where he can stick it, but a professional doesn't do it. Judgement and professionalism are pretty important for an LEO, this guy exhibited a lack of both.

This is looking worse and worse, and this dept doesn't have the best track record to begin with.

 

[50 Freak]

Not even going into the "druken 64 year old" (who, if his lawyer is telling the truth, wasn't even drunk and has been "dry" for years now). How do you justify hitting the new reporter. Think if average Joe Blow were to push a reporter into the car and hit him in the ribs. That Joe Blow guy wouldn't be sitting in jail right now on aggrevated assault?

Where's that LE right now?


The officers in question are on administrative leave pending the investigation. I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make.

My point!!!!!!!!! (Ad hominem attack removed by moderator.) If you or I were beating the crap out of that 64 year old man, do you think we'd be have the luxury of going home and waiting till a trial comes on Jan 6????

No way in hell, you and I would be sitting in jail right now for attempted manslaughter, assault and battery, committing race crimes, acts of terrorism, jaywalking and anything else they could throw at us.

(more removed by moderator)

 

[M-Rex]

My point!!!!!!!!! (Ad hominem attack removed by moderator.) If you or I were beating the crap out of that 64 year old man, do you think we'd be have the luxury of going home and waiting till a trial comes on Jan 6????

No way in hell, you and I would be sitting in jail right now for attempted manslaughter, assault and battery, committing race crimes, acts of terrorism, jaywalking and anything else they could throw at us.

(More removed by moderator)

You make it sound like being on administrative leave and waiting to be fired, prosecuted, publicly lambasted, and sued is something to look forward too. Don't worry. You'll get your pound of flesh soon enough.

Really, settle down. Your insecurity is showing.

 

[50 Freak]

You make it sound like being on administrative leave and waiting to be fired, prosecuted, publicly lambasted, and sued is something to look forward too. Don't worry. You'll get your pound of flesh soon enough.

Listen here (edited ) you probably right that it's going to suck to be those LE's for the next 3 months. It's not going to be fun for them and their families, but it sure beats the hell out of of sitting in jail the next 3 months waiting for trial. And that's what you and I would be doing.

How do you feel now that the old geezer says he wasn't drunk and hasn't touched alcohol in 25 years. Seems his kids and the his lawyer is saying the same thing. I hope the LE's (for their sake) made him take a breathalizer test or something.

 

[M-Rex]

How do you feel now that the old geezer says he wasn't drunk and hasn't touched alcohol in 25 years. Seems his kids and the his lawyer is saying the same thing.

Shylock? Ok.

How I 'feel' is irelevent.

And what, pray tell, would you expect the 'old geezer', his family, and his lawyer to say? "Everything was my fault, officer. I'm to blame. Take me to jail"?

 

[50 Freak]

And what, pray tell, would you expect the 'old geezer', his family, and his lawyer to say? "Everything was my fault, officer. I'm to blame. Take me to jail"?

So everyone but the police are all liars now.....

 

[M-Rex]

I give up.

 

[50 Freak]

Shylock? Ok.

Shylock....Merchant of Venice...your reference to a "pound of flesh"...

Either way buddy, we can agree to disagree. It's the American way. Good to see a fellow N. Cali person on the boards.

 

[No_Brakes23]

I give up.

I am not defending the LEO-hate, but is it really so hard to understand this sort of attitude on a board dedicated to rights that a lot of folks feel the cops are suppressing?

Still, I understand your point. A real shame that it is so hard to have a discussion without some Caps-Lock frenzy of invective being hurled by someone who just got a speeding ticket.

(For the record, I actually do have a lot of discontent with traffic cops, but I am willing to admit that it is because I just got a ticket.)

 

[Byron Quick]

OK, folks, everyone has done fairly well at avoiding what is considered cop bashing on this thread. Which is NOT criticizing the police.

However, the bounds of civility are becoming frayed. Cluebat: either play nice or go stand in the corner.

"Everything was my fault, officer. I'm to blame. Take me to jail"?

I've done this a time or two. Officer's mouth fell open. Flabbergasted to the point that I didn't even get a warning ticket. And it was a traffic offense that was supposed to be an automatic trip to jail. Reckon they really don't hear it much.

 

[MechAg94]

If the old guy wasn't drunk a simple blood test would show it wouldn't it? He could have demanded all the alcohol tests then pressed charges for harassment if found with no alcohol. He didn't have to fight and wrestle with police, despite his arthritis. There are other ways around that problem.
(I will assume he was fighting. If everyone else can assume the LEO's were evil SOB's, I can assume that.)

I don't think the guy who got in the reporters face shouldn't be punished, just that the punishment should be relative to what he did, which wasn't much, IMHO.

My point!!!!!!!!! (Ad hominem attack removed by moderator.) If you or I were beating the crap out of that 64 year old man, do you think we'd be have the luxury of going home and waiting till a trial comes on Jan 6????

No way in hell, you and I would be sitting in jail right now for attempted manslaughter, assault and battery, committing race crimes, acts of terrorism, jaywalking and anything else they could throw at us.

If you had a lawyer available, yes, you would be sitting at home waiting. On the other hand, I don't think you would have any legal purpose for detaining the man in the first place, which they do as LEO's. Not the a good comparrison.

Where did you get manslaughter from? At what point on that video did you get the idea the cops were trying to kill that man? They had much better weapons for that purpose. Batons would have been much better. I think you are letting your emotions get the better of you.

 

[MechAg94]

I have said almost nothing to an officer on a traffic stop before. He kept looking at me like he was expecting me to complaining and mouthing off. Not worth it for an inspection sticker.

 

[justashooter]

i can't say what i want to say here, cause this is the high road.

i could say it on the fal files.

i can only ask, who is the criminal in the video?

 

[Baba Louie]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051011/ap_on_re_us/new_orleans_taped_beating
(From the story above)
...Two city officers accused in the beating, and a third officer accused of grabbing and shoving an Associated Press Television News producer who helped document the confrontation, pleaded not guilty Monday to battery charges.

Trial was set at a hearing Monday for Jan. 11. Afterward, officers Lance Schilling, Robert Evangelist and S.M. Smith were released on bond. They left without commenting.

Police Superintendent Warren Riley said any misconduct would be dealt with swiftly. He noted the video showed "a portion of that incident."

"The actions that were observed on this video are certainly unacceptable by this department," Riley said.

Two other officials in the video appeared to be federal officers, according to police. Numerous agencies have sent officers to help with patrols in the aftermath of Katrina.

...Davis said he had been walking in the French Quarter and approached a mounted police officer to ask about the curfew in the city when another officer interrupted.

"This other guy interfered and I said he shouldn't," Davis said. "I started to cross the street and — bam — I got it. ... All I know is this guy attacked me and said, `I will kick your ass,' and they proceeded to do it."
...

Let's wait and see what each side's attorneys have to tell the judge. It'll be interesting to hear what the two Fed LEO's have to offer by way of testimony.

"THE OTHER GUY (Policeman?) INTERFERED AND I SAID HE SHOULDN'T..."

Uh Oh!
A No Win for everyone involved.

 

[Greymoor]

Usually when a perp is brought to the hospital for treatment a blood test would be done to check his blood alcohol level. If the guy was drunk we should know about it just from his trip to the hospital for those stitches. If the man was drunk it would be very easy to prove.

So what are the results of the test? Or for some reason was this person not taken to the hospital or given the blood tests? If you are not drunk it is pretty hard to explain the arrest let alone the trashing.

If three cops can't restrain a 64-year-old man without having to stomp him they need to work at a different profession.

 

[M-Rex]

I am not defending the LEO-hate, but is it really so hard to understand this sort of attitude on a board dedicated to rights that a lot of folks feel the cops are suppressing?

No_brakes23, I see your point. I really do. Let me put it to you this way. I signed up for THR because it was recommended to me as THE only good firearms related web board. I signed up thinking I was going to find mature, well adjusted folks who could talk about firearms. I found a few. But, I also found a large percentage of pseudo-militia nuts, anarchist libertarian fruitloops, anti-cop bigots, and largely uninformed posters -- just like every other firearms board. In fact, I think there are numerous users of this board who actively seek out stories like this so they can stand up and scream, "See! The po-po are takin' your rights-es away!" They want to find stories of law enforcement officers making mistakes because is supports their paranoia and delusions. They want something to happen so they can grab up all their firearms, march out into the street, and 'fight the gummint'. "Whoo hoo, Cleetus, ah gets to shoot off mah shoot-em-up gun"

I think they want law enforcement to make contact with them just so they can 'go out in a blaze of glory for freedom'. Their anti-cop hate and bigotry is a warm blanket they wrap themselves in to cover their insecurities.

This thread is the perfect example. There is no way in hell that a thread like this, with posters like this would evolve into anything but a big cop bashing bitch session. I do find it hard to understand where so much vitriolic hate comes from. No one likes to see the light bar behind his/her vehicle. Hell, I don't even like to see it. But, if a police officer or deputy sheriff stops a car on the freeway, why was the officer lighting the car up? The driver was probably speeding. Who sets the speeding limit? A committee made up of people from the community. Who gets the 'constitutionalist diatribe' at the side of the road? The solitary law enforcement officer.

Did those N.O. officers use excessive force? Who the hell knows? For Heaven's sake, all that's out there is a few seconds of video. If they did, they'll be disciplined.

The law enforcement officer on the street does not make the laws. Elected representatives and senators do. LEO's are the ones who have to deal with all the loonballs on the side of the road pissing, moaning, bitching, and complaining that their 'rights' are being taken away.

 

[TheEgg]

A lot of people who are condemning the police action are making assumptions not supported by the evidence (yet).

A lot of people who are supporting the police action are making assumptions not supported by the evidence (yet).

The two critical factors here to me are:

1. Was he drunk? We should surely know -- when he was taken in for treatment, he would as a matter of course had blood drawn -- it can be tested for alchohol level. If he was NOT drunk, then we know a key fact -- the officers are lying their tails off. If he WAS drunk, the old man is lying his tail off.

2. Did he resist at first? We have yet to see any tape of the start of this incident. Does it exist? If he resisted, then we know he is again lying his tail off. If he did not, then we know that the officers are lying their tails off.

So, for me, to have a firm conclusion, we need to answer those two key questions -- was the man drunk, and did he resist arrest, or was he as he said, sucker punced out of the blue?

Now, reading between the lines, recognizing that the two elements above must be resolved to have any kind of definitive conclusion:

My turn to speculate -- It looks to me like a possible case of "contempt of cop." Why do I hypothesis this?

1. The victim/perp seems to be reluctant to relate in detail what he said to one of the officers at the start of the incident -- I take that as a reluctance to admit that he probably made comments to one or more of them about their ancestry/personal habits that he is not proud of now.

2. The reaction of the cop to the newsman, and the cops comments to the newsman.

3. The fact that we do not yet have an official statement from the hospital, DA, or Police Department that the gentleman had a BAL of "x" and was thus drunk, thereby supporting the actions of the police. If they had this, I think it would be announced by now. So maybe he wasn't a drunk.

 

[Derby FALs]

My turn to speculate -- It looks to me like a possible case of "contempt of cop." Why do I hypothesis this?

"Contempt of Cop" is not an arrest able offense. They generally have to lie about something to charge you with. What is really contemptible is the other officers lying to cover the first lie.