Police Beating in New Orleans Caught on Tape #2 Constructive Criticism ONLY

[Gunsnrovers]

You've never heard a cop claim that? So abuse under color of authority doesn't exist?

 

[M-Rex]

Post hoc ergo propter hoc.

 

[Cosmoline]

What were you doing to get you pulled over 25?

Got me. I've got some tickets, but all for paperwork infractions. I don't speed and the only serious accident I was in was a fluke of the ice and didn't impact anyone but myself.

Part of it may be my ratty-looking S-10. I suspect something about it makes me look like a meth cook. Usually they stop me, tell me about the light that's out, demand "zee papers" and then shine the light around. Whatever they're looking for, they apparently aren't finding it. I'm really fed up with pretense stops. Esp. since they will NEVER admit that's what they're doing.

Do you think the 'us vs. them' attitude is reciprocal? Take a look at the users of this board. Do you think there's a pervasive 'us vs. them' attitude being displayed? Hell, take a look at this thread.

Certainly, that's part of it. And it's a fair observation. I'm guilty of it myself from time to time.

What makes me most annoyed is the attitude that the police protect us. They do not. I do not expect them to protect me from harm, and indeed they would never be able to unless they're supermen. They are part of the criminal justice system. They are NOT and have never been a "thin blue line" protecting the "sheep" from the "wolves." We're all human men, and we all bear responsibility for protecting ourselves.

 

[50 Freak]

But I have seen many a roofer who's breakfast consisted of the last half of last night's beer, and a little methamphetamine sprinkled on his cornflakes.

Don't you know that part of the job description for being a roofer is being a "meth head".

Tell me M-Rex, what do you do if you pull an old geezer over and he has some cans of Folgers Coffee in the back of his car????

So your a police supporter now matter what they do. That's fine if you want to believe they can do no wrong. But please note, that's not the common consensus among us here. How many "bad cop" articles in the paper have you been seeing in the last few months. Even if half of them were true, is a sad statement on the police as a whole.

LE's have a crappy job. No doubt about it. A buddy of mine just got killed pulling over some gang banger two months ago. Being a LE is no excuse to treat the "civilians" as the enemy. Don't make us the enemy. All we ask is stop being blind and clean house.

 

[50 Freak]

Post hoc ergo propter hoc.

Yeah, but if there is so many occurances that it becomes a constant then there must be a correlation somewhere.

 

[M-Rex]

So your a police supporter now matter what they do. That's fine if you want to believe they can do no wrong. But please note, that's not the common consensus among us here. How many "bad cop" articles in the paper have you been seeing in the last few months. Even if half of them were true, is a sad statement on the police as a whole.

If you read any of my posts at all, you would know that is not the case. Judging by the amount of 'jump-on-the-band-wagon-ism', it would seem that 'a' common consensus (not 'the' common concensus) is knee jerk anti-cop bigotry.

'Bad cop' articles in the paper are printed because they gain readers. There's a rather weird fascination in society with watching heroes fall. I believe that people like to see 'bad cop' stories because they know their lives are so miserable, that the only way they can feel good about themselves is to see someone else fall. They justify their own imperfections by pointing fingers at those in authority and screaming, "But what about him?"

"Well, I might be a dope smoking, meth shooting, wife beating, alcoholic, puppy sodomizing, flea infested baby raper....but at least, I'm not that that cop who roughed up an AP reporter."

 

[50 Freak]

'Bad cop' articles in the paper are printed because they gain readers. There's a rather weird fascination in society with watching heroes fall. I believe that people like to see 'bad cop' stories because they know their lives are so miserable, that the only way they can feel good about themselves is to see someone else fall. They justify their own imperfections by pointing fingers at those in authority and screaming, "But what about him?"

I disagree. I do think some people like to watch others fall (call it the accident on the freeway syndrome) but not the majority of the public. I sure as heck don't. At one time I wanted to be a cop. Decided the high divorce/suicide rates were not a result I want from a job. Besides I like money, and you know LE's aren't exactly rich.

But getting back to my point. I think the majority want to trust and believe in their local LE. But this "us versus them" mentality has driven a stake between the LE community and those they serve. I hate seeing that. Whether it's the result of bad publicity of a minority or the "beat them at all cost" training techniques, the steady militarization of the police or what???. I don't know.

I can just see that most people don't trust LE's and that is very unfortunate because that's not the way it should be.

Quick tangent. Last night, someone called me to donate money to the local Policemen's fund. Typically in the past, without a thought, I'd say send me some written literature (to make sure my money is going to the police and not some unscruptilous telemarketer) and send a check in. I instead said "no" and today am not sure if I did the right thing. Not good.

 

[Peet]

(edited by moderator) v.s. reciprocal

[troll (but every word is true)]

Do you think the 'us vs. them' attitude is reciprocal?

No, I don't think so. I know so.

Back in high school (this is about 1968) I was a rebel (not). Long hair, but that was the total extent of any "rebel" behavior. Mind you, this is in a liberal college town.

(edited by moderator) Usual license and registration. Sends me on my way without another word. Not speeding - no lane-change - no X-walk - no nuthin'. No ticket, warning, verbal, no freakin' thing at all said.

Next day, in school the (edited) kid starts tweaking me.

Number 1: (edited) is discussing his stops with the family over dinner.

Number 2: (edited) tells his kid who tells me that he stopped me because my hair was too long.

Given what I know happened, how do I, now, tell at the time if it is a driving w/o a haircut or a legitimate stop? Is this what "driving while colored" stops feel like?

They don't trust "civilians" who "look different" and we can't trust "them."

[/troll]

 

[TheEgg]

A further tid-bit of information: (Note, Bruno is the lawyer for Robert Davis)

Bruno said he would ask for the charges to be dropped. Earlier, he told CNN his client was not asked to submit to a sobriety test.

So, the police did not try to to collect evidence for a charge they were laying against him????????????????

 

[Amusetec]

It is starting to get old if you say something negative about the police you are suddenly a cop hater. The true supporters and the police can not do anything wrong and if it is well you have to understand there cops and it is ok.
The supportes of the police will attack anyone saying anything negative about the police saying well you are not a cop so you do not know what you are talking about. Well I say you are not me so you do not know what you are talking about. In my life I have had quite a bit of interaction with LE some of it very good and some of it very bad. Most of the people I knew in the Dept. left said it was not worth it and did not like "The young militeristic ones that was comming into the force." there words. I too have been pulled over many times and for no reason and some made up and yes they where Eyewitnesses.
One of the biggest thing about the police is there stand you will beat the rap but not the ride. Or something like it, now if the police know you are not going to be charged or conv. of anything what right do they have to arresst me? and yes they do make things up and lie on the stand.
So before you start to call someone anti cop and say they do not know what they are talking about and are just jumping on the bandwagon maybe you should find out what there experience is and you know it just might be justifiable.
There was a time when the police where highly regarded and thought of as not doing any wrong, people just about idolized them.
People I know who use to thing the best person on the planet was a cop. anytime you have a problem you go to a cop. now these same people would not call the police unless they absolutly had to. you know after you shoot someone its a law

I got into this same discussion with a few and I mean few of our finest one day in a restaruant. One of them finaly asked ok then why is it when ever you need help like some one breaking into your house you always call us for help?
With out missing a beat I told him well I have too it is the law I can not just shoot them and throw them in the dumpster now can I?
his jaw just about hit the table a couple laughed and one said it is too bad you can't I would be all for it.
Now If I truly hated the police would I be a member of Law Enforcement Alliaance of America? No I would not. It is just that I have seen the change in law enforcement over the years and do not like it.
Before I meet my wife she went out with a few of them and the stories I heard.

The police like to say that they do not profile well you and I know that is crap .I profile you profile everyone profiles. So police pulling over teen that looks like a gang banger is ok. Police look more like Police state cop than you and me. what am I suppose to think about it.
when the cops where thought of good they had business haircuts sharply dressed and looked professional. now look at alot of them.
case inpoint Houston Police got a new Chief and he said ok from now on I want officers to have proper short haircuts shined shoes shined bags clean pressed uniform. Do you know what happened he got ridiculed from the rank in file to the news to talk radio laughed at him. Police look professional what would that do? well for one they would probably get more respect.
But the reason the chief used it was becuse there was a rash of people immitating the police well we can start by looking very professional becuse most of the BGs looked like thugs in uniform which some of our Police do look like.


All I am real trying to get at is that before you tell some one that disagrees with you that you do not know what you are talking about and talk down to them maybe you should find out more about them and where they are comming from. Polite Debate is the only way to Debate.

Now that I have gotten that off my chest go ahead and attack me for being stupid. You know who you are
Becuse I am a big boy and can take it and yes I am Ignorant one some things just like you are. But I try to talk with people who can be civil and listen to there point of view but I expect nothing but the same. Becuse alot of times I learn alot just by listening. That is one reason I like reading these boards but I would rather go out and meet people face to face and discuss with them. becuse alot of a conversation involves body lang. How can you use body lang. here

 

[M-Rex]

But this "us versus them" mentality has driven a stake between the LE community and those they serve. I hate seeing that. Whether it's the result of bad publicity of a minority or the "beat them at all cost" training techniques, the steady militarization of the police or what???. I don't know.

On this, you and I agree completely. I hate the rift that seems to be forming (or has formed) between citizens and law enforcement officers, and I agree with your examples.

 

[bountyhunter]

(edited by moderator) Usual license and registration. Sends me on my way without another word. Not speeding - no lane-change - no X-walk - no nuthin'. No ticket, warning, verbal, no freakin' thing at all said.

We got pulled over one night..... no charge at all. he looked all through the car, rousted all four of us for ID and general harrassment...... then wrote me a ticket becuse there was a smudge on my driver's license and took off.

I am not making that up.

Downtown sacramento, four young white guys in a 64 Mustang.

I REALLY wanted to ask him how he could see the smudge on my license given that it was in my pocket.... but I thought better of it.

 

[wingnutx]

the old guy wasn't drunk a simple blood test would show it wouldn't it? He could have demanded all the alcohol tests then pressed charges for harassment if found with no alcohol.

The burden of proof is on the state, not the accused.

 

[F4GIB]

This is "cop bashing"??? So says M-Rex.

I'll first note, the officers currently are not being held to the same standard as any other citizen. So, it definately is off to a poor start.

Funny thing, I've never been able to get a BBS owner or a moderator to give me a definition of "cop bashing" that isn't totally arbitrary. "Don't bruise their tiny egos" isn't a workable standard for deciding whether to post or not. In fact it's a real good example of why prior restraints chill speech (even the non-free speech on a BBS).

One BBS well known to most of us uses an "abusive" standard. That's no standard at all but just a hook to hang another arbitrary decision on. Then they privately tell the mods to "cut slack" for the LEO's so it's not even evenhanded arbitrariness.

Some incidents call for righteous anger (indignation for the more polite) and for powerful statements of condemnation. The beating of the old man in N.O. (like the attack on the old woman in N.O.) are just such incidents. That isn't bashing, that's a civilized response to uncivilized conduct.

 

[50 Freak]

then wrote me a ticket becuse there was a smudge on my driver's license and took off.

My best buddy in HS got pulled over, made to sit on the sidewalk with his friends for half an hour while the police searched his car and was finally given a ticket for having a "dirty plate". More like driving a crappy car through a good neighborhood.

Funny thing. He's a deputy sheriff for Orange county now. Even after all the heartache he received from the LE's when he was younger

 

[M-Rex]

This is "cop bashing"??? So says M-Rex.

I'll first note, the officers currently are not being held to the same standard as any other citizen. So, it definately is off to a poor start.

Actually, that's a preconceived bias based on ignorance.

 

[c_yeager]

So, the police did not try to to collect evidence for a charge they were laying against him????????????????

I think you meant to say "the police did not try to collect evidence for a charge that was to be layed against them"

 

[XavierBreath]

Robert Davis was interviewed on our local news channels tonight.

He does not blame the police officers, and states this matter is not racially motivated. He believes the way he was dressed, in a white T-shirt and shorts with grey whiskers on his face made him look like a homeless person. He stated he may have had cigarette smoke on his breath, but no alcohol, and is sure the ER physician will acquit him of any charges that he was drunk from his bloodwork. I have to say that Mr. Davis is a gentleman of the highest order. His response is so unlike that of Rodney King, that he will prevail in this matter.

As far as the stress the police are operating under..........Mr. Davis had recently returned to New Orleans to check on his property that was wiped out. He and his family has been under a great deal of stress as well. Operating under stress does not give law enforcement license to beat citizens. Mr. Davis asked a mounted policeman about the curfew time. Then another policeman smarted off to him, and Mr. Davis asked to be left alone. For that he was beaten to the ground and falsely accused of public drunkeness, and the police had the audacity to try to justify it and suppress and rough up a journalist who filmed their criminal activity. There is something very very wrong here, and it is NOT a black man with whiskers asking a mounted policeman about a curfew!

I usually give the police the benefit of the doubt. In this case, that is very difficult. Beaten New Orleans Man Revisits Scene

NEW ORLEANS (AP) -- Robert Davis stood at the corner of Bourbon and Conti streets in the French Quarter and stared in disbelief at the brown stain on the sidewalk.

"Is that my blood? It must be," said the 64-year-old retired elementary schoolteacher, who was arrested and repeatedly punched by police over the weekend. "I didn't know I was bleeding that bad."

The confrontation, captured on videotape and broadcast across the country, has put another unwanted spotlight on the beleaguered, exhausted police force in this storm-struck city.

Three officers pleaded not guilty to charges stemming from the incident and the U.S. Justice Department opened a civil rights investigation.

Davis disputed contentions by police that he had been drinking.

"I haven't had a drink in 25 years," Davis said Monday. "I didn't do anything. I was going to get a pack of cigarettes and taking my evening constitutional."

The two city police officers accused in the beating, and a third accused of grabbing and shoving an Associated Press Television News producer who helped capture the encounter on tape, pleaded not guilty to battery charges and were released Monday.

After a hearing, at which trial was set for Jan. 11, officers Lance Schilling, Robert Evangelist and S.M. Smith were released on bond. They left without commenting. They were suspended without pay Sunday.

Davis says even though police accuse him of public intoxication, he hadn't been drinking.

Police Superintendent Warren Riley said any misconduct found in an investigation would be dealt with swiftly. He noted the video showed "a portion of that incident."

"The actions that were observed on this video are certainly unacceptable by this department," Riley said.

Davis is black; the three city police officers seen on the tape are white. But Davis and police officials have said they don't believe race was a factor.

Two other officials in the video appeared to be federal officers, according to police. Numerous agencies have sent officers to help in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, and police spokesman Marlon Defillo said it would be up to their commanders to decide if they would face charges.

Davis had stitches under his swollen left eye, a bandage around a finger and complained of aches in his left shoulder and soreness in his back. His lawyer said he suffered fractures to his cheek and eye socket.

The confrontation came as the New Orleans Police Department - long plagued by allegations of brutality and corruption - struggles with the aftermath of Katrina and the resignation last month of Police Superintendent Eddie Compass.

Davis said the confrontation began after he had approached a mounted police officer Saturday to ask about curfews in the city when another officer interrupted.

"This other guy interfered and I said he shouldn't," Davis said. "I started to cross the street and - bam - I got it. ... All I know is this guy attacked me and said, 'I will kick your ass,' and they proceeded to do it."

The APTN tape shows an officer hitting Davis at least four times in the head. Davis appeared to resist, twisting and flailing as he was dragged to the ground by four officers. Davis' lawyer, Joseph Bruno, said his client did not resist police.

Another officer also kneed Davis and punched him twice. Davis was pushed to the sidewalk with blood streaming down his arm and into the gutter. The officers accused of striking Davis were identified as Schilling and Evangelist.

During the arrest, another officer, identified as Smith, ordered an APTN producer and cameraman to stop recording. When producer Rich Matthews held up his credentials, the officer grabbed him, leaned him backward over a car, jabbed him in the stomach and unleashed a profanity-laced tirade.

Davis had returned to New Orleans over the weekend from Atlanta to inspect six properties owned by members of his family, intending to clean them up or figure out how to rebuild them. He's no longer sure he'll return permanently to the city he's called home for 28 years.

"That's up in the air. The chaos that's here - I don't know," he said.

---

Associated Press writer Rachel LaCorte contributed to this report

Here's a link to an excerpt of Mr. Davis' interview.
I have to say, as inflammatory as the statement may be, that this kind of uncalled for attack on a man's physical safety and life is exactly why many of us carry a gun. I wonder..........If these attackers had not been cops, but Cripps, and Mr. Davis had pulled his Glock out and ventilated a couple of skulls, would you have held him at fault? If not, then why are the police any different when they commit the same act?

I understand the NOPD has still not dropped the Public Drunk charges against Mr. Davis.

Some incidents call for righteous anger (indignation for the more polite) and for powerful statements of condemnation. The beating of the old man in N.O. (like the attack on the old woman in N.O.) are just such incidents. That isn't bashing, that's a civilized response to uncivilized conduct.

Amen Brother!

 

[50 Freak]

I understand the NOPD has still not dropped the Public Drunk charges against Mr. Davis.

Doesn't matter, Mr. Davis will end up owning half of NO in a year. And the jury will throw it out. Tax payers lose again.

Retired school teacher. Hasn't touched alcohol in 25 years. Picking up cigarettes on this way to church. Jeez.... what a nightmare.

Too bad for NO, he wasn't some crack head pimp on his way to rob the local Qwik-e Mart.

 

[mmike87]

If cops were as perfect as their critics, what a wonderful
world it would be.

OK - but when civillians error or go a little too far, we end up in jail. Either people are responsible for their actions or they are not. Your occupation does not change the rules for you. Laws that require breaking the law to enforce are not worth enforcing.

Police are supposed to be better trained and better equipped to handle difficult situations. Certainly there are better ways to subdue an unarmed old man. Was this guy a threat to anything but one officer's ego?

Armed guy running down the street threatening to shoot people - fine, take him down as hard as necessary. Drunk old guy ... please!

We choose our occupation in this country. If someone can't handle treating citizens, even drunk ones, with some respect, then they need a new occupation.

And this is assuming the guy was even drunk at all - which seems to be in serious doubt now. Personally, if cops assaulted me on the street I'd resist, too - and feel it would be my God-given right to do so.

I will agree the officer responding to the AP reporter
went overboard, but I have not been under 6 weeks of
of that kind of stress and have no idea what I would do.

OK, so the citizens of NO aren't under any stress? If a group of "stressed" citizens beat the snot out of a cop would you be as sympathetic?

 

[mmike87]

So the moderator wants a thread that does not include any cop bashing...yet the thread is about...cop bashing. Hmmm...

This thread is not about cop bashing - it's about "old man bashing." They beat the snot out of a 64 year old man who was unarmed. The response needs to echo the threat.

Can cops shoot jay-walkers just to demand "compliance"?

New Orleans can sleep easy this evening with this violent guy off the street.

 

[mmike87]

My 2 Cents: If you don't like getting arrested or want to argue, the street is not the place to do it. If you resist arrest, you are just asking for an a$$ whipping whether you think it is right or legal or not.

Well, if it's NOT legal then it's not resisting - it's self defense.

 

[mmike87]

By assault I assume you mean shoved and yelled at. I didn't see anything more than that.

OK, I'll walk up to a cop and do just that. I have $10 that says I'd be charged with "assaulting a police officer" (and rightly so).

So, by your logic, a police officer shoving a reporter is different than if it had been the other way around. Therefore, you admit that a different standard of conduct exists for LEO's.

Someone shoves me for no reason, I am shoving back. I don't give a damn who you think you are.

 

[rde]

"M-Rex,
we are well aware of the occupational hazards of being a police officer. None of those hazards justify police officers seeing themselves as a separate class of citizen to whom a LOWERED set of expectations apply. If anything, police should be held to as high a standard as their fellow citizens."

Totally agree.

Apparently I don't know anything about stress according to M-Rex. Even though I am retired military, have been deployed all over the world in less than vacation like circumstances, to include 2 wars, and even recieved the purple heart. But...I guess I just don't know what REAL stress is...PA-lease. Bottom line, I don't have the time of day to listen to that type of excuse and that type of whining.

The attack on the AP journalist is a very key point that clearly demonstrates the concern that many non-police have regarding the police: an armed man physically assaulted the journalist in an attempt to stop the video recording. That armed man is a police officer. That is not an "administrative issue." That is a whole series of felony offenses. Lest many forget code and statutes provide a legal means to defend self up to an including the use of deadly force when attacked. Even when the attackers are LEO's in those cases where LEO's do not have proper legal justification to attack. Read your laws.

 

[griz]

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Take all of the stress you've ever felt from bills, a nagging spouse, a malfunctioning vehicle, walking a dark street at night, etc.......THEN.......couple it with inept administrators, marginal politicians, a spiteful unappreciative public, thousands of laws, ordinances, and general orders that govern your daily activities, and people who actively want to kill you simply because you wear a uniform, and maybe, just maybe, you will get close to what it is like to be an LEO.

This is not sarcasm or a joke, just an honest question. If you feel that is what the job is like, why do you do it?