Police Concerned about Bulletproof Vests

[rock jock]

Like many posters to this thread, I remember reading about this problem two years or so ago. Glad they finally got around to letting the LE world in on the secret.

 

[Morgan]

FYI, Safariland Zero-G Platinum models have Zylon, Gold and lower are kevlar.

An interesting story at: http://www.foxnews.com/printer_friendly_story/0,3566,100693,00.html

See the video at the bottom...

 

[rebbryan]

i'm sure SC is a great company, but the fact remains that they knew about the probelms and didn't report them.

>>Taking steps to correct the problem leads to correcting the problem, things do take time you know. Few if any quick, easy fix exists in the real world<<

thing is, there shold never have been a problem. they should have tested it more thuroughly or limited it's use time before selling it

 

[1911]

“I’m sure SC is a great company, but the fact remains that they knew about the problems and didn't report them.â€

Reb,


Richard Davis has come out as soon as possible about the whole Zylon fiasco. It takes time and laboratory controlled conditions to flush out problems like degradation in vest. Richard Davis is not the kind of guy that is going to go off the deep end and recall Zylon vest just because some keyboard expert says there is a problem.

I know Mr Davis has been collecting vest for some time now and testing them in his controlled laboratory’s.SC and Nij are the only two places that I know that have such testing procedures in place. Simply taking a vest and propping it up to a two x four is not going to yield scientific results.

Toyobo was the first to stir the pot on the whole degradation issue.After careful study, they have come out recently and retracted some of their first findings and are now in favor of using Zylon in bullet proof vest.

Read the whole story here. http://www.toyobo.co.jp/e/seihin/kc/pbo/menu/fra_menu_en.htm

 

[WYO]

I called the company on October 6 after I first read about the recall, and they told me I would receive the inserts shortly. I am still waiting for the inserts. I also asked for the name of the nearest representative so I could do the upgrade to a Summit vest. They gave me the name of rep and I called and left a voice mail message on October 6 or 7. I have not heard back from him. I called another dealer and was told that Second Chance was way behind in fulfilling orders because of the recall, and that it would take a while to receive a Summit. My Ultima was my 3rd Second Chance vest, but I think I am going to switch for good now.

 

[1911]

WYO, I feel your pain.

I figured once SC made up their minds to take this course of action that somewhere along the line it had not been thought through all the way.

I imagine like most recalls/upgrades it will take a year or so to get the kinks out of the system and get everyone outfitted properly.

The whole firestone/ford recall went on for 3 years and people were out on the street driving on defective tires. But in the end everything did work out. It was sad that people had to get hurt in the process.

 

[rebbryan]

so the company that makes zylon says it's safe, call me crazy but for some reason i don't believe it

>>The whole firestone/ford recall went on for 3 years and people were out on the street driving on defective tires<<

and they insisted nothing was wrong

 

[Jake 98c/11b]

But Second Chance did step up and say, 'hey there is an issue here and we intend to fix it'. What is wrong with that? I suppose you never made a mistake huh? Are you saying a company should never market a product until all possible flaws and faults could be assertained? That shouldn't take more than 20-25 years I guess. Maturing technologies do occasionally have problems, it is an imperfect world after all.

 

[c_yeager]

I commend them for comming out and admitting the problem. It kinda upsets me that they sat on the knowledge for two years though.

 

[Jake 98c/11b]

Explain to me how they sat on the knowledge for two years. All I read says independent testing two years ago indicated some inconsistencies. At the same time, and possibly because of this testing, Second Chance began a new and more exhaustive round of ongoing testing. Because of this testing and possibly other factors they now have issued the recent warnings and taken steps to serve their customers. In the one case I read about where one of these vests was breached there was no mention of caliber, weapon or load used. We have no idea what the threat was and if the vest was even rated to stop this threat (for what little the threat level ratings mean). Testing inconsistencies do not mean failures, not necessicarily anyway. These test concerns may not even have been of the same material since these things are different weaves and types. The tested material may have been a different form of zylon or of a different form of the material made for a different purpose.

I do not want to be viewed as an appologist for the company because I don't think they have done anything wrong. In fact I think they have done everything right in this situation. Years ago they took two vest models off the market because it was possible that one 9mm round (that the vest was not rated to stop) could possibly breach them. This kind of thing would not happen in a company that would hide the truth from the consumers they are trying to serve. If you want more information on this I will try to find it, I have it here somewhere.

Once again I think people here have made decisions based on incomplete or misleading information. Look at all the facts, look at the source, look at their reasons for their statments and look at it from all sides. If anyone has info I don't I would appreciate it, I may change my mind if evidence shows cause for it. Anyone know the caliber, weapon and load of the supposed failures mentioned in the articles? Age of the vests or conditions that may effect performance?

 

[c_yeager]

Lets see here, a group not affiliated with any manufacture of vests proved that their vests simply DIDNT work. They inform the company of this. The company does nothing. Concerned users of the companies product contact the company for the next two years and are all assured that their vests are in PERFECT order with nothing at all wrong with them. So these users continue to use this product that DOESNT WORK for a further two years. Yeah the company did absolutly nothing wrong.

 

[rebbryan]

>>Are you saying a company should never market a product until all possible flaws and faults could be assertained?<<

if they say it lasts for five years, then YES it should be field tested for 5 years, ESPECIALLY when people's lives depend on it. i think zylon only lasted two years at max

 

[TechBrute]

rebbryan, I think your location should be listed as Utopia, since it seems that you don't take a real-world approach to business.

If ANY company, regardless of the industry, waits until a new technology is complete proven before it releases its own version, the company would be put out of business pretty quickly. The bottom line is that SC is a business, not a public welfare program that doesn't have to turn a profit.

All businesses have to take risks every now and then. Some calculate them better than others. If SC didn't release vests with the new, albiet unproven, technology, it's very likely the company wouldn't be around today. The flip side of this is that when you take risks, they don't always pay off. This might have been a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario, but their choice would have been to go out of business back then, or to go out of business now. A company like SC doesn't have the resources to go back and redo everything they've done over the last few years.

 

[Jake 98c/11b]

Yeager, you must have far more information than I have seen on the net, from any authoritative source anyway. You seem to know the testing lab and who hired them and why. You know what form of material they tested and the test standards. I will not say that you are wrong but if you know, definitatively, more about this then please let me know. As a child I was warned of the dangers of jumping to conclusions and that lesson has sunk in. Some lessons are not universal I see.

Like I said, if you have more information please post it and the source. If all you have is supposition and a half the story please look into it further.

TechBrute, I am glad to see someone else here with a realistic understanding of maturing technologies and economic realitiy. I really do think that we may just be entering the steam age if yeager and rebryan had their way.

Once again, the only thing I read concerning the testing of zylon that said anything negative only mentioned that there were inconsistencies. An inconsistency is rather ambiguous. Does it mean a failure or just a bad test sample of material. Is this the same form of zylon that is used in the vest? Were the reported inconsistencies relavent to body armor, they seem to be but we don't know what these inconsistencies are. I am not saying that there are not issues here but all I have seen show Second Chance has gone out of their way to serve the safety of their customers first and the company and it's profits second.

Anyone have a link to the Tactical Forums thread that shows Second Chance asking for more information from Kevin at TF? Their discussion of vest materials would be worth re-reading.

 

[Grump]

Geoff
Who expects the protective garment industry will disappear after the first jury awards damages when an officer is killed by a bullet penetrating the CARRIER and missing the ballistic package.

Check the Utah reporter. Early-to-mid 1980s, an officer's wife sued after the entry team dude (pointman?) took one in the armpit from a wheelchair-bound loony whose family was bombing LDS chapels.

Missed all the panels. No designed to protect that area and all officers putting the vests on were deemed to assume all risks from gunfire directed to the unprotected area.

The widow lost.

And people think companies are LOSING all those frivolous lawsuits.

If a company learns of a potential problem and the evidence is NOT conclusive, then beginning its own investigation doesn't count as "doing nothing."

If the thinness feature cannot be safely provided after all, then the manufacturer is responsible to first, provide the level of protection, and second, compensate for the bargained-for-value which was not received by the purchaser. Full replacement of brand-new units for partially-worn-out units provides an unjustified windfall to the purchaser. My life-safety issues are just as real for my tires as they are for a bullet-resistant vest. Both rely on tensile strength to keep the user alive, and neither is reasonably expected to provide the same level of protection forever.

 

[rebbryan]

tech, i'm not saying that they should test if for 5 years, they should test it under 5 year conditions that it would go through such as moisture, heat, cold, wear. if they SAY it lasts for 5 years then it should. taking risks is fine in a furniture company, not when people's lives depend on it.

I really do think that we may just be entering the steam age if yeager and rebryan had their way.

at least it'd be done right

 

[TechBrute]

Hey reb!

I wholeheartedly agree with your feelings, but unfortunately that's not how things are done.

T

 

[Roadkill Coyote]

Jake 98c/11b,
There's plenty more information on all these subjects available.

Explain to me how they sat on the knowledge for two years. All I read says independent testing two years ago indicated some inconsistencies.

Well, here's what the German firm DSST found, and published in 2001. Admittedly, they're one of Second Chance's competitors, but they took a hit over the data by deciding not to produce Zylon armor, and events appear to have proved them right.

"New ballistic data on Zylon®-UD and Zylon® fabric "

DSST's results, and the refusal of another compeitor (US ARMOR) to use Zylon should have been a signal that Second Chance needed to get to the bottom of the problem ASAP. Instead, they acted only after an officer had been shot.

In the one case I read about where one of these vests was breached there was no mention of caliber, weapon or load used. We have no idea what the threat was and if the vest was even rated to stop this threat

It was a .40 caliber which the vest should have stopped. The following link is to a local news story from just after the event (with a picture of the handgun).

Pittsburgh Post-Gazette 06-24-03 "Forest Hills officer shot"

Here's one with a picture of the vest showing where the round passed through the vest.

The Tribune-Review 07-25-03 "Police ask how slug pierced vest of officer"

This is an article in which the Chief of the Forrest Hills PD confirms that it was a .40 caliber and that they have ruled out it being a hot round.

Pittsbugh Post-Gazette 10-19-03 "Failure of officer's bulletproof vest shakes confidence"

None of this proves that Second Chance is in the wrong, but it is certainly enough information for us to adjourn into Messer Occam's Barber Shop for a trim. You can call my new hairstyle "the cynic". As to the folks over at Tactical Forums, they may be abrasive and given to prematurely imputing motives, but in the case of Zylon, it appears they may be correct.

 

[Jake 98c/11b]

Roadkill, thanks for the additional information, any other relavent info would be appreciated. I wonder what made them decide it was not a hot round since they decided not to remove it from the officers abdomen. I would doubt it was any exotic or altered round, your average drone is not likely to have the drive or ability to do anything exceptional but you never know.

Anyone have the time to find a link for the old Tactical Forums thread with correspondence from Second Chance?

Well said Grump, If a company learns of a potential problem and the evidence is NOT conclusive, then beginning its own investigation doesn't count as "doing nothing."

 

[WYO]

Second Chance has been the industry leader for a long time. It always seemed to be on the cutting edge of the technology. I don’t expect them to test a product for 5 years before offering it to the public, but I do expect them to test it as best as possible and alert people when problems arise. I expect them to take vests out of real world circulation and test them from time to time. It used to be that I relied on what Rich Davis said, whether he was trashing someone else’s product or disagreeing with NIJ. I thought the SXT related recall in the late 90’s was a sign of genuine concern. (Now I’m not so sure it wasn’t just a marketing ploy that didn’t cost them much.) However, I have lost faith in the company over this Zylon flap. I have been reading stuff about Zylon problems for quite some time, so surely SC knew or should have known about the issue long before I did. SC perpetuated the problem by continuing to sell new vests of the same material as the evidence continued to pile up. Once they decided to do the recall, they weren’t ready to handle the volume. I don’t like hanging out. I don’t like it when distributors to whom they refer me don’t return phone calls. I don’t like being told that I’ll receive the temporary inserts in a few days, and I’m still waiting 3-1/2 weeks later. I don’t like getting inconsistent information about the cost of a replacement vest, which appears to vary with who you talk to and when you talk to them. I don’t like being offered a 5% discount on a new $800 vest because my vest is almost 5 years old, when it probably should have been recalled 2 years earlier for a 45% discount. I don’t like being told that it would take a long time to get a replacement vest because of the sheer number of vests involved. It used to be worth it to me to buy SC, because I didn’t mind paying a premium for the best, having full confidence that it would work within its design parameters. Now, I think that U.S. Armor has the credibility based upon its refusal to market a Zylon vest, and the amount I saved by ordering one of their vests instead of SC will allow me to purchase a new one every 2.5-3 years if I want to.

I also think that other companies marketing Zylon vests have a worse credibility problem than Second Chance, which at least has started its recall program. When you get right down to it, it’s probably cheaper for a vest company to play the odds of paying a couple of million bucks to someone who gets nailed by a pass through than it is to recall a ton of vests in circulation.

Until I get my U.S. Armor vest (the whole industry is backlogged due to the Zylon problem), I’ll be wearing a 10 year old SC Kevlar Comfort Lite II. When the new vest comes in, I’m going to shoot my Ultima and see if my sense of security has been false.