Police Officers - Firearms Knowledge

[riverdog]

This thread reminds me of the NYPD Blue episode where Det. Greg Medavoy comes back from the firing range after being the first in the squad to qualify with the NEW 9mm (Glock/Sig whatever). His thumb is all bandaged up from the slide taking a bite out him and he's his usual full of doubt self. "Why did I have to qualify first?" Later on there's an episode where a perp goes off in the squad and Medavoy draws and shoots without hesitation. It's all about training.

All the cops I know are retired and they were all prior military. I learned a lot from them. When I was on the range at Ft Meade (early 80's) a local cop showed up to pick up some stuff from one of the RO's -- reloading stuff, 5K primers IIRC. He was on his way to the Bianchi Cup (invitational?) and was nationally competitive. He ended up instructing a bunch of us on technique in double taps and other IPSC stuff. We shot both 1911's and revolvers. In 15 minutes I learned most of what I know regarding revolver handling -- after that it was just trigger time.

If you want to learn how to use a revolver there's no better way than to learn from a retired cop who carried one on duty. They only had six rounds and they learned to make them count. 'course I also know a retired L.A. county deputy who hates guns and he was a Marine, takes all kinds I s'pose.

 

[Steel]

I remember the total goobers that accompanied me through the academy, years ago. It is scary to think that these dorks are on patrol, packing. Don't kid yourself, a small percentage of cops are gun afficionados to the order that you fine folks are. There are many that, when given a single action 1911 style, for example, would be incapable of safely operating it. A discussion on ballistics, styles, or models? Forget about it, you will run into a lot of dumbassatude.

 

[*8*]

My general observations concerning LEO's and their knowledge of firearms are somewhat limited. However, most of 'em are somewhat knowledgeable on their issue sidearms only.

OT, I'm trying to get a lot of trigger time prior to my CCW renewal/qual next week and found out that the agents of our new Department of Homeland Security are pretty good shots with their HK USP compact in .40s&w. The only thing I observed is that some of 'em aren't too good in cleaning their weapons.

 

[keyhole]

Well having been in law enforcement for 12 years, (with 6 years between departments working as a PI, with a "carry permit"), I know that most officers do know little about what they carry. As a deputy now, most of the other deputies are lots more knowledgable than the new PD officers, as to what they carry, and the other types of guns out there. Of course, there are a few others, like myself, who are "nutz", and own more guns than they have hands for. It is a sad fact, that most leo's I run into are not interested in competitive shooting. I take part in hosting a competition each fall,( 3 in the past 7 years, missing some due to lack of interest) and last year had the largest turnout so far, about 2 dozen officers, from 2 states, and about a dozen different agencies. Really depressing!

 

[Watchman]

I think that alot of the "attitudes" and knowledge of guns depends on where you live. I'd be willing to bet that the rural depts. tend to know a little more about their guns than the average cop in the big city.

In my dept, most people tend to know a little more about guns than average as we talk about them quite a bit. There are only maybe 3 or 4 out of 50 or so that dont know much about them.

Several of the deputys could be classifed as bonafide gun fanatics and the rest are just a bit above average. Everyone appears to do well when it comes to qualification time as most score are in the 80 and above category. There seems to be a bit less knowledge about rifles than pistols or revolvers.

After attending and participating in a demonstration of various rifles and capabilitys, some were amazed at the fact that most rifles can and will shoot though a car door. After smoking some concrete blocks and punching holes in various steel gongs, many were forced to rethink their strategys when confronted with rifle fire. I like to think that sometime in the distant future someone will remember the demo and live as a result of it.

There is one thing that concerns me that has already been mentioned. The young punks hiring on that come from city environments know only what they see and beleive on TV. I dont think that the academy is heavy enough in weapons training. Some of the newbies actually thought that bullets spark when they hit steel, that cars automatically explode when hit anywhere, that their vest will stop any bullet or caliber known to mankind and that they will never run up against better shots than they are. These youngters dont know the difference between a AK or an AR or an SKS. If they happen to live in a predominatley antigun state, they likely never will know.

 

[Watchman]

Whoops...double tap.

 

[coonan357]

the one I love is the time a CCSP deputy told me my colt was broken because when I went into battery my hammer went back to rest , It is ??? pulled the trigger while pointed down range and low and behold.... BOOM ! , hmm he must have never seen a canadian colt before (para-ord 14-45LDA ) also the same idiot who said my hi caps where Illegal ,My friend from our county PD said no they are not and showed him the Batf regs.. as for the officer in question , haven't seen him around lately ..

 

[Kilroy]

If the cops don't know or care, it is because that is what your community wants and expects.

It is commendable that the folks posting bad experiences called to complain, but they should have followed up with a call to the chief or sheriff and asked for a written letter explaining that their complaint had been noted and followed up with. Then you would see how far a station house complaint often goes.

But again, that is what your community wants and expects for it's law enforcement.

I reviewed the operations manual for the department that handles the biggest motorcycle rally in the world. They misquoted, in writing, their own state's concealed permit laws and required their officers to make arrests based on the wrong information.

Without ever having conducted an after action review, this agency views never having the public note such probems as a success.

This is what the public is willing to settle for...

 

[MountainPeak]

I've got mixed feelings about this one. I've posted this before. The two guys I shoot with the most are both retired LEOs. One a Chicago policeman, the other a Chief Deputy from TN. Both are very qualified shooters and know a lot about firearms. On the other hand, you can pick up police trade ins that frequently do not have much wear(shot little). I think it just depends on the individual. I am always surprised that someone would know so little about a tool of his/her trade.

 

[Mastrogiacomo]

Kind of shocking really. To me, it makes the cop a tad dangerous if they can't handle a firearm well. They should know what to do in a bad situation better than me. I think every cop should know guns like the back of their hands and how to use their department issue. It's particularly of concern if they can't tell you the model of the gun they have on the job. Kind of makes you wonder if you could depend on them to use firearms with any accuracy if they can't remember what they have.

 

[Hypnogator]

I suppose one of the few benefits of the liability craze in this country is that police departments are forced to train their personnel to at least a rudimentary degree of proficiency with their weapons.

When I was right out of college, I worked for a private security outfit (a famous one), and was detailed to guard a building. The offgoing guard handed me a holstered revolver when he left. The company had no idea if I knew how to shoot or not. Since I was on night shift and out of public view, I had the audacity to pull the weapon out of the holster, after some difficulty, because it was rusted to the leather. When I finally managed to get the cylinder of the fine old S&W M&P open, I found it contained five cartridges: two military ball rounds, two wadcutters, and a lead round nose. Looked like they had been in the cylinder for years, and I doubt the gun had been cleaned since I was born!

Nowdays I train law enforcement and security officers in judgmental shooting nationwide. From what I've seen, previous posters have pretty well sized up the situation. A certain percentage of officers are very knowledgeable of their weapons and the state of weaponcraft, most know enough about them to handle them properly, and a small percentage don't know, and don't care. What bothers me, though, is the fact that many law enforcement executives view officers knowledgeable of firearms as "cowboys" instead of professionals who are proficient with their tools. :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

 

[Erik]

My experiences show that most LEOs possess relatively limited knowledge about forearms, with a few somewhat savy and a very few very savy enthusiasts sprinkles in. (No more than 10%)

Take my current FLETC class:

There are 24 of us.

Three of us have shooting experience of one form or another.

Of the rest, about six or seven claimed to have shot a gun "once or twice."

Every one else touched of their first round just last week.

The wash rate, incidentally, is supposedly around one or two, given a class of 24.

2225 more rounds to go. Some may need a tad more.... Time will tell.

 

[GAMALOT]

Law officers & Guns

I retired from the dept. of correction where I was a weapons and chemical agents instructor for twenty years.
Give the men in blue a break! For most departments, officers are qualified on their weapons once every year which consists of a few hours at the range. They get a brush up on gun safety and 50 rounds to fire at a target, 20 practice and 30 to qualify! 225 out of 300 is passing. Talk about LACK OF TRAINING!
Sadly, most departments resent the expense and would not do it at all if training laws were not in place!
I continually ran into major problems regarding seniority Vs ability.
It was always the most senior guy that got the duty involving the carrying of a gun while transporting prisoners. It was also always the senior guy who had no clue how to handle or use the weapon and considered it a burden. Often the senior guy would come to the range and couldn't care less to listen, practice or even be there but he did want to get 225 so he could keep his bid job. Police officers and Peace officers are notoriously under trained in many key aspects of the job they do. In my department, officers who showed great interest in guns were considered by most to be cowboys or nuts. Administrators shunned them and there were no provisions for those who wanted to become more proficient. The department would not even sponsor a pistol team or allow them the use of the range facilities. My suggestion, if you see an officer pull his gun, seek cover!

 

[Zundfolge]

If pulled over with a CCW and the officer demands to hold your gun (which I understand happens quite often), wouldn't it be prudent to drop the magazine and clear the chamber before handing it to him?

I've always been told you never hand anyone a loaded gun. When sharing guns with a friend at the range I always eject the magazine and lock the action open before handing the gun over.

 

[CZ-75]

they will never run up against better shots than they are.

Probably a correct assumption. Not every crook is a Vern Miller or Clyde Barrow. Most can only connect by spraying or shooting their victim point blank.

wouldn't it be prudent to drop the magazine and clear the chamber before handing it to him?

Some would probably ventilate you for manipulating your weapon, esp. since anyone wanting to take possession doesn't trust you much, even with all the background checks you've gone though to get CCW.

 

[Schlickenmeyer]

The officer's overall kowledege of firearms is largely irrelevant.
How they can handle the firearm they carry is all that really matters.

The overall police hit rate is, well, abysmal. Most police can't shoot well.
This, personally, bugs the hell out of me. We expect them to take our place in front of danger, yet we can't bother to train them to a level which they might survive. The stats are scary. a 50% miss rate would make you one of the best departments in the country.

Duck.

 

[dairycreek]

My youngest daughter's god father is a retired chief of police.

Before that he was a LEO "on the street" for twenty or more years. Through him I became well acquainted with the local police and what, in general, police do. While all of the police officers were required to periodically qualify with their weapons only a very few were very interested in guns per se. Far and away the majority of these LEO's considered the gun as part of their "tools of the trade" - nothing more. The very best of them were not heavily interested in guns. Those who were "gun nuts" were not necessarily the best cops. No correlation that I could ever detect. Good shooting

 

[MountainPeak]

Dairycreek, all true "craftsmen" that I have been involved with, take pride in the ability to master a "tool of their trade". Anything less makes them a bush league player that has no business in the majors. It doesn't take much money to throw a few rounds out once a month or so. Even less to know what model or caliber of gun you are using "To Protect and Serve' with. Anything less is shamefull. They ought to seek a new job. They are a danger to themselves and the public. Again, the two guys I shoot with most often are retired LEOs and damn good with firearms!

 

[Gordy Wesen]

I was gassing up one night when a local cop spied a Ruger Blackhawk (probably .44 mag) on the dash of a pickup at the pump in front of me. He waited for the owner to come out and when he got to the truck he was ordered to put his hands on the hood. The cop retrieved the weapon and could not figure out how to unload it. I offered the advice to pull the hammer to half cock and rotate the cylinder...he still didn't get it. I finished gassing and left.