Police shooting, people going nuts over dead idiot.

[copper4262]

Where do i start?

IMHO

This is not a less-lethal situation - Not at all. The knife alone bumps it up to a lethal situation. Hell - a screw driver in the hand of a suspect is a lethal situation. Ever seen a screw driver or a wooden dowel sticking out of someone? I have - will kill you deader then dead or send you to the ER - either way you try to stick a cop with one there's a good chance you will get shot - Yeah - we would much rather be able to Tazer everyone who threatens us - But thats not always possible. I have been Tazed in training several times - Guess what - its the worst pain i have ever felt for the longest five seconds of my life - but when the juice is gone i can get right back up and fight - what if the cop cant get the tazer on in time the second time?? you think a hyped up suspect and roll over and get a shot off before the cop can get the tazer working again? or what if the tazer doesn't work - or the pepper spray doesn't work - These are all tools - they aren't the answer for a Lethal Force situation - The Ladder of Force goes up - plain and simple - you bring a weapon against the police they are gonna step it up a notch above you - Someone pulls a knife of me Im gonna pull a gun - I dont care if theres a threat of a gun or not - Im going to do everything in my power to go home in one piece each and ever morning - Cops dont go out praying at night that they get to shoot someone - When I got to work at night I pray I will make it home safe to take my kids to school in the morning - having to somtimes hurt people at work isn't a perk for cops - its just a sad reality of where our society is at - Thats why we train and get less lethal options -to try and keep from hurting people and to keep them from hurting other people - but sometimes people dont play by the rules - its a sad reality -

Any way - sorry to rant - its just makes me defensive when anyone questions the motives of the police - No not all police are good - I wish they were - but there are going to be bad apples everywhere(ever heard of bad plumbers or mechanics or disonest carpenters or doctors or even teachers) socitety is full of bad people and yes some of them make it into law enforcement - but on the whole the LEO community is not out trying to hurt people - they have to make split second decisions that will affect their lives and the lives of others forever - Again - we can sit and analyze this all day long - in the end it comes down to this: do you honestly know what you would do in a situation like that without actually being there?? Would you have done anything different from what they did?

IMHO

 

[bhp9mm]

they need to go to the range 20 shots and the guy was not shooting back if he had a real gun and was shooting back they wood have shot like 50 or more with all that shooting they put other people in danger that did not do noting they are lucky they did not kill somebody else.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

history is not on the side of NYPD :

History isn't in question here. The shooting of the guy with the hair brush occurred in a mutually exclusive situation from those situations that occurred previously.

My prayer go to the mother who will more than likely have guilt that she call the cops and they killed her son and the cops with a conscience that has to deal with killing an unarmed and mentally ill person.

Well the mother reported on 911 that her son had a gun. http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/11/13/ny.shooting/?iref=mpstoryview

Authorities were responding to a 9-1-1 call his mother made about a "family dispute with a gun," police said.

See the clip here that includes the 911 call...
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/11/13/ny.shooting/?iref=mpstoryview#cnnSTCVideo

The mother later claimed he didn't have a gun, but the shootee did.

As for being unarmed? Nope. He definitely had knives seen by cops earlier in the confrontation. He definitely claimed to have a gun. He advanced on the cops against their commands. He would not show his hands. As he approached the cops, he pulled an object from under his shirt and pointed it at them. He said he had a gun and acted like he had one and was going to shoot the cops. They stopped him.

mental illness is a sickness not a crime.

Nope, mental illness is not a crime. Threatening to hurt people and then acting like you are about to carry our your threat while refusing to abide by the lawful commands of officers is. Just because the guy might have been mentally ill does not mean the officers gave up their rights to defend themselves against him.

 

[Officers'Wife]

HI Mike,

mental illness is a sickness not a crime.

When someone mentally ill is threatening to kill or harm another the first priority is to stop the threat. It's unfortunate that illness (assuming he was ill) drove him to a situation that got him killed but officers on the beat do not carry psychs with them. (Although I could name a few that should.)

Had this person's illness convinced him he could fly would you blame the building he jumped off of or gravity? Had his illness convinced him he could wrestle a moving semi would you blame the driver that run him over? Can you really blame people that have accepted the duty to protect society for stopping him after being given evidence he was a danger not just to himself to society at large?

Police are people and people are just people. That badge does not grant them greater wisdom, courage or understanding. All it gives them is a job to do. In this case the job was done within the boundaries of a resonable person. It's a sad case, but I'll save my sympathy for the mother, the siblings and the police officers forced by circumstances to use deadly force. I'll save my outrage for when an officer fires at a fleeing car and kills a jogger or a young mother taking her baby for a walk. Mentally ill guy screaming he has a gun and threatening with a knife? Sorry, sympathy rating zero- just an unfortunate circumstance.

Selena

 

[MASTEROFMALICE]

Yes............it appears you are.

Am I the only one who thinks that this would have been a PERFECT "less-lethal" munitions scenario?

 

[yesit'sloaded]

If you can make a device with a range of at least 100 yards that can instantly stop all people 100% of the time, I'll put my guns in storage. Until then it is the best option availible for crazies with knives, guns, and other weapons.

 

[soutex50]

The media and the Sharpton types will always try to re-direct focus from the real circumstances at hand......
quote "several times showed a knife to police" and " kept approaching officers"
to me, the issue of whether he had a gun or not is no longer my greatest concern, the knife and him closing the gap between officers is.

Sad situation for all involved at the end.

 

[MakAttak]

In the mean time, come on down to the range with me, I have an exercise that is an rather inexact approximation of what you face. We'll see how you do.

I'll take that challenge!!


















... but I seriously doubt I'll do better than 40%, I'd just like to know how to train so I can should I ever be faced with a situation where it is necessary...

 

[Roccobro]

20 rounds between five officers shooting. Four rounds seems like restraint for all the trigger happy claims for this incident. Failsafe drills are two to the chest, one to the head. I might lose count and squeeze off another by accident in such a situation.

I guess they stopped shooting once he stopped advancing. Hyperactive adrenaline, coupled with poor training/habits would show phenomena like continued fire in such a situation as this. Haven't heard of any complaints of a single shot after he complied/fell down. Kudo's to the beat cops.

Justin

 

[Mikebnice]

would the views of this forum be a little different if he was a war vet. or some middle class white kid that needed help ? just a question


http://www.nydailynews.com/news/2007/11/15/2007-11-15_cop_in_teen_shooting_in_disrespectful_ba.html


Ala dan (+1 for the NYPD, as another wanna'be thug has been removed from society)

Mr white (My thought exactly. As soon as Sharpton adds his name and face to a 'cause' it loses any credibility it may have had) it is really sad that we still need a AL sharpton in 2007 but NYPD keeps giving him a job.



De-Criminalizing Mental Illness
http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1651002,00.html

Psycho." "Freak." "Jason from the horror movie." These are the answers that counselor Habsi Kaba gets from Miami police officers when asked to describe people with mental illness. Such stereotypes are surprisingly common, says Kaba, and not just within law enforcement



Bystander Dyshawn Gibson described Monday's shooting to CNN affiliate WABC-TV. "He dropped the brush," Gibson said. "He put his hands up. Police just started firing."

If I sound a little bias to NYPD I am just a little
I grew up in NYC and was less that impressed with them.
I have family and friends in NYPD and other police dept. so I don't think of myself as anti police but I do think a lot of NYPD is rotten to the core and bias toward minorities .

 

[Cosmoline]

Cosmoline,
Sounds great. Tell you what, I'll propose a tax increase to:
a) Hire enough officers to maintain coverage while the rest are training.

b) Allow for every officer in the country to get as much time behind the gun as an operator in a Tier One military unit.

You will lobby all of your legislators and get your friends, neighbors and business associates to support it. Fair enough?

In the mean time, come on down to the range with me, I have an exercise that is an rather inexact approximation of what you face. We'll see how you do.

Or why not just stop wasting money on new sidearms every few years and get each officer a shotgun or a mini-14?

Whether or not I can personally pass some test you have in mind is really not relevant. I'm not a peace officer. But as a matter of fact I do try to keep a long arm at hand whenever I can legally and practically do so, because I know perfectly well that even after tens of thousands of rounds out of the short gun I really don't trust one that much in a fight. I don't even trust one against a squirrel unless the animal is very close and sitting very still. But with the right long gun such as my CZ, he be dead squirrel. A squirrel is not a man, but it's about the size of a man's heart.

Telling me the officers have a difficult job is no better than Scott sitting in a tent in Antartica complaining about the weather and challenging the nay-sayers to try man hauling. Nobody is making them do it. The officers should use carbines or get a lot better with sidearms, and Scott should have used ski and dog.

These are just a few of the hundreds of things we must know before we can begin to analyze what happened and learn from it.

The bottom line is they miss almost as often as they hit. Sometimes they miss a lot more. That's a problem. You can analyze the situation all you want, but the end result MUST BE to hit more often. And from what I've seen, that just isn't happening in major departments. So they're doing something wrong or their equipment is not up to the task. Like I said, if they can't hit the target with what they've got they need something longer and more powerful.

In my few brushups with nervous LEO's, I've gotten to look down the barrel of a loaded AR. Now I was never trying to run or cause troubles in those situations I was just a witness to the usual Spenard and backwoods tom foolery. But had I wanted to dart and run at the officer I would have given myself maybe a 5% chance of dodging the aim on that beast. With a short gun, everything changes and the chance of dodging aim or absorbing .40 cal slugs long enough to get a knife in or a weapon drawn is much higher. How many handgun rounds would it take to stop me? Maybe one, but maybe a lot more. And I'm small compared with some of these Samoan boys.

Put it this way, I would never under any circumstances be an LEO for a department that restricted my ability to carry at least a carbine or shotgun as I saw fit.

As far as whether it was a lawful shooting or not, I have no idea and we don't know nearly enough facts. What we do know is that a number of officers who were NOT UNDER FIRE and had a clear shot at a man who wanted to be shot still missed an amazing number of times. Every one of those bullets that missed was a FAILURE on their part that put innocent lives at risk. That's just the way it is, and excuses about being overworked underpaid or whatever really don't cut it. They have to get better or get better and more powerful weapons.

 

[yesit'sloaded]

I don't think being mentally ill has anything to do with running towards cops with a knife. When someone runs at you with a knife you don't try and figure out why they are doing so. Flashing a "gun" at the cops on top of that was even worse. I'm usually all for restraining LEOs from using any amount of force over the minimum required, but in this situation they had no clue what was under that shirt and did what any reasonable self preserving person would do.

 

[ozwyn]

I am often very critical of LEO use of force.

But in this circumstance it is a crappy situation but given the suspect's behaviors it is a good shoot IMO. If I randomly "i have a gun" and start acting agressively to responding LEOs after someone calls 911 on me, getting shot is a reasonable outcome.

cops should bill the mother for the ammo, and then get a little more range time in. 40% hit ratio is not terrible for a real world self-defense shooting, but they could still use some work.

 

[S&W620]

ozwyn, I'm right there with you.

When you tell police officers you have a gun, after they have you on tape saying "I'm ready to die", and then you advance toward them, what can you honestly expect to happen?

It's an awful situation, no doubt, but anyone who is surprised by the outcome is a bit naive.

Here's to hoping both the officers and the family can move past this terrible incident.

 

[Phil DeGraves]

"Whether or not I can personally pass some test you have in mind is really not relevant. I'm not a peace officer. The bottom line is they miss almost as often as they hit. Sometimes they miss a lot more. That's a problem. You can analyze the situation all you want, but the end result MUST BE to hit more often. And from what I've seen, that just isn't happening in major departments. So they're doing something wrong or their equipment is not up to the task."

Since you are not a police officer, than I would guess that your realm of experience is inadequate to judge whether 40% is good or not. Believe me, trainers deal with this all the time. There are so many things that police officers are expected to learn in so little time that given the amount of training these guys probably got, 40% sounded pretty good to me.

And it is a poor sport that blames his equipment. Certainly, in a perfect world, while we're Monday morning quarterbacking we can say, they should have stayed back and shot him with a long gun. But that's what it is...Monday morning quarterbacking. You weren't there and then when someone offers you the chance to experience it yourself, you decline.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

the best thing about being a monday morning quarterback is its safe

 

[Officers'Wife]

Hi Phil,

Since you are not a police officer, than I would guess that your realm of experience is inadequate to judge whether 40% is good or not. Believe me, trainers deal with this all the time. There are so many things that police officers are expected to learn in so little time that given the amount of training these guys probably got, 40% sounded pretty good to me.

I'm sure that you are not a cattleman, but you are still able to judge the quality of meat. I'm sure you are not a truck driver but you are still able to judge the guy messed up when your products are damaged in transit. Thin blue line aside, professionals are judged, rightly or wrongly, by the perception of their proformance. You comment(s) smacks of cop attitude 'us, perps, and civilians." Despite your apparent distain for civilians they are your employers, and have every right to criticize your performance by whatever yardstick they want to use.

Every round that did not hit the target, was a hazard to the civilian population. "But at least they stopped shooting when the target went down " sounds like something that could be used to discribe a gang-banger drive-by. The more sloppy marksmanship is defended, the more I have to wonder the diff.

Selena

 

[Phil DeGraves]

"You comment(s) smacks of cop attitude 'us, perps, and civilians." Despite your apparent distain for civilians they are your employers, and have every right to criticize your performance by whatever yardstick they want to use."

I am not a police officer. That being said I find your comment particularly offensive. I think before anyone does any Monday morning quarterbacking they at least ought to know what they are talking about. And your analogy just doesn't hold water. I do have to have driven 18 hours to have an idea what its like to do a long haul. How many of you have ever been in a gunfight or even had training in gunfight dynamics? The truth is, if you had, you would see that 40% is actually a pretty good hit ratio. So before casting aspersions on the police officers involved, at least look at it from the position they were in and not from a comfortable armchair in your living room.

 

[Officers'Wife]

Hi Phil,

I do have to have driven 18 hours to have an idea what its like to do a long haul.

You think THAT qualifies you? OK, provided you had about 16 or 17 thousand pounds behind you in the middle of rush hour traffic. But it's a moot point. It's really amazing to me the excessive cop denyier can raise six kind of perdition when soldiers in a war zone return fire (note the word return) because there were 'civilians' in the area yet give the tired old excuse of 'battlefield dynamics' when overaged boys in blue play Wild Bill Hickok on a city street. So find, since 'battlefield dynamics' make it impossible for police to use target acq then take away their semi-autos and give them single shot pistols, at least that way civilians have a chance to duck and cover. After all, if we cannot trust them to use that firepower responsiblely, be it natural reaction or attitude, it's best to take them away. Just ask the mayor(s) of Chicago, New Orleans and Los Angeles.

<sarcasm OFF/>
Selena

 

[Phil DeGraves]

What's next? Are you going to say they should have shot the knife out of his hand? The amount and type of training officers get is marginal at best. 40% under those circumstances is pretty good. If you are saying they should get more and better training, well of course, I agree. But I am also realistic enough to realize, it ain't gonna happen...

And no, I wasn't saying that that "qualifies" me. I was just trying to make a point. Perhaps I should have said, I am not a cattleman so I am not going to tell you how to herd your cattle. Unless you have some basis in REALITY instead of what you've seen on TV, don't make judgements. Shooting on a range does not approximate shooting in a gunfight. They are apples and oranges. The REALITY of the situation is that in a gunfight when you're first objective is not to get hurt and your second objective is hitting the target, there will be misses. And it's compounded when there are more than one officer involved.

"So find, since 'battlefield dynamics' make it impossible for police to use target acq then take away their semi-autos..."

Actually, it isn't impossible though it isn't intuitive either. That is what GOOD and INTENSE training will do for you. And also, I agree that there are some officers out there that shouldn't be armed at all because their skills are so poor. But you are getting into areas that have been the bane of police trainers everywhere for a long time and for which this is not the appropriate place to discuss.

 

[Officers'Wife]

Hi Phil,

Actually, it isn't impossible though it isn't intuitive either. That is what GOOD and INTENSE training will do for you.

Interesting, then NYC is allowing undertrained LEO's out on the streets while the Sullivan Act disarms the citizen at large? Interesting argument.

As for how to herd MY cattle, you could try but you would deserve only a very rude answer. Simply because you have financial basis none to be concern about MY cows. However, if I were raising YOUR cattle, everything you would tell me, no matter how idiotic it might be, would be etched in stone simply because you would be signing my paycheck. Police officers are not being paid by the government any more than I would be being paid by the bank your check was drawn from. The police are paid by the citizen, meaning the citizen has every right to criticize them for everything from excessive force to speeding on a public road.


The office of the police is to protect society by enforcing the law.
Shooting bad people when they interfere with that office is within their job description.
Blasting away at anything BUT the BG is in itself a deadly threat to society ergo the antithesis of the office. Persons, regardless of their employment, that commit acts against the peace and dignity of society- such as spraying pistol ball around a city neighborhood- need to be removed from society as much as the perp they are defending themselves against.

I do not expect any LEO to be larger than life. I do expect them to be professional in the use of their trade. Four men + one target + 20 rounds is a cluster frack not the work of professionals.

Item last, if you are trying to change my opinion please do not waste your time. I'm not much of a fan of gov agents being held to a lower standard. I am strongly opposed to those in a position of trust that violates that trust. I have nothing but contempt for those supposed to be professionals that yeild the work product of an amateur, then make excuses to justify their behaviors. You have made your case, I have made mine. You are not going to change, neither am I. You have a right to your opinion, I have a right to disagree. At this point it's probably best to move on.

Pax
Selena

 

[jcoiii]

I do not expect any LEO to be larger than life. I do expect them to be professional in the use of their trade. Four men + one target + 20 rounds is a cluster frack not the work of professionals.

btw, how long does it take you to fire four shots? (20 shots fired by 4 officers was it?) I can fire four in the amount of time it takes for the first round to have any effect on the badguy. Back at the academy (yeah, leo) when I was just learning to get better at gun handling, I drew from retention holster, fired two rounds COM in about 1.07 seconds, with most of that being the time to draw/get on target. I can do it better now. But my point is, I can shoot 5 in under two seconds. I'm sure many many here can do so much better than that.

So four officers draw and fire over a span of 2-3 seconds. 40% hit ratio is better than the average by 200% (from the last stats I read). is that good? no, for the reasons pointed out. If 40% hit, that's 8 rounds. Where are the other 12? Well, the shots will be accounted for, and the dept will be paying for any damages caused by those shots.

So, rather than debating the training habits and how the cops are unprofessional if they can't hit 100% of the time like you do on your targets, could we stick to the OP's topic about these officers shooting this kid?

 

[Officers'Wife]

Hi jcoiii,

I can fire four in the amount of time it takes for the first round to have any effect on the badguy.

I'm happy for you, I have a Fiero at my brother's place that I can easily handle going around curves on gravel roads at 70 MPH. However, I'm prone to use my common sense.

Where are the other 12? Well, the shots will be accounted for, and the dept will be paying for any damages caused by those shots.

Wrong, the taxpayers will be paying for any damages the poorly aimed rounds caused. Now, in a city with a large population density what are the odds those 'insurance' rounds will hit a civilian? What compensation is enough for a child's life? Or that child's mother? I've heard Chicago cops making the joke 'the guy was innocent and standing by, he was asking to get shot.' The checkerboards think it's hilarious. I think it's time for them to find another line of work.

Being trained to empty a magazine doesn't really impress me that much. A double tap I can understand, four rounds? Sounds to me like an advertisement for LEO's to go back to revolvers if such abuses are part of 'training.'

Sarcasm aside, you have a difficult and dangerous job. Almost as dangerous as dangerous as agriculture. That doesn't give you a pass to put on the uniform and leave common sense behind. "the dept will pay" is far from a justification, it's an excuse. And a rather poor excuse at that.

Selena

 

[Eyesac]

40% hit ratio?

Goodness... I always have to wonder if I would be that bad...

 

[Pete409]

I'll have to side with the cops on this one. Considering the circumstances as they saw it, I think they did the right thing.

As for hitting him with only 40% of the rounds, that might not be too bad. I don't know the distance that the cops were away from the guy. If I were one of the cops, I think I would try to keep considerable distance between me and the guy under these circumstances. I would also try to stay behind some cover if possible.