Shootcraps
Member
- Joined
- Jan 18, 2004
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- 1,007
Hello there, Paranoid if you like. 
Police Trainee Accidentally Killed By Instructor
- Thread starter erik the bold
- Start date
- Status
Andrew Rothman, Your very sure of yourself and I really do hope you are able to keep up that ridged adherence to the 4 rules and your personal code of conduct. Forever and without fail, in all things.
I hope we never see you here having to post something like this:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=123187
Just a friendly nudge my friend, becuase I would love to see you skip a lesson in humility like Mr Jackson is now getting and I got a few short months ago.
I hope we never see you here having to post something like this:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=123187
Just a friendly nudge my friend, becuase I would love to see you skip a lesson in humility like Mr Jackson is now getting and I got a few short months ago.
Sindawe
Member
Update
I came across this via KeepAndBearArms.com. Looks like another example of one law for us, another for LEOs.
I came across this via KeepAndBearArms.com. Looks like another example of one law for us, another for LEOs.
Yes, accidents happen. Though I strongly doubt if *I*, not a LEO, accidently killed someone with a firearm that I'd suffer only a reduction in rank and 30 days off w/o pay.
fantacmet
Member
Well from the info given, the only thing I think we can really conclude from this is nobody is immune to accidental shootings. However I have to believe that one or more of the 5 rules of firearm safety were not followed. As if they all were, even an accidental discharge could not result in someone being shot.
Rev. Michael
Rev. Michael
Andrew Rothman
Member
I think it's worth resurrecting this thread to show the outcome. The trainer who shot and killed the recruit was busted down to deputy, got a 30-day rip, and is back on the job. To settle the lawsuit, the county paid a million dollars to the cadet's family and agreed to review the training curriculum.
http://cobbsheriff.org/news/12-21-06 Drummond Settlement Press Release.htm
Read the whole thing. The most amazing part:
So up until this tragedy, there was no rule against pointing functioning firearms at people? Hard to believe that, though it's also stunning to think such a rule would have to be written in the first place.
http://cobbsheriff.org/news/12-21-06 Drummond Settlement Press Release.htm
Read the whole thing. The most amazing part:
So up until this tragedy, there was no rule against pointing functioning firearms at people? Hard to believe that, though it's also stunning to think such a rule would have to be written in the first place.
Australian Shooter
Member
Sorry for being off topic and trying to trivialise this matter, but if something like this happened in Australia, I'll bet your bottom dollar that some police Superintendant or other high ranked police officer(s) would try to ban all police firearms (ie disarm the police force).
Dr. Peter Venkman
Member
One word: sucks.
larry_minn
Member
I just saw this for first time. One comment a few months/plus ago I took interset in.
basement? gym? classroom? no firearms and no ammo allowed?
BUT they were dry firing inside the building?
There are too many "facts" floating around to follow the story . .
K-Romulus
..........
I have been in a basement that was a gym where we had firearms training. I also was told to take a "real" gun (S&W 4506 IIRC) and point it at instructor and "dry fire" it. I refused and he got tossed OUT of training. Note This was a private citizen "Firearms SAFETY course"
I have also taken a CCWP course where the instructor (A retarded LEO) (ok retired) Well he had "blue guns" for demo but always used his "REAL GUN" for demo and waved it everywhere. After range session he unholstered it and started class. I stopped him. "THAT GUN IS LOADED He assured me it was not. I insisted. (would have left but the person hosting the class was person I owe a lot and didn't want to make a scene) Finally he agreed to check it. (again showing his stupidity as a normal perons would agree to check "actually do it automaticly" )
Guess what? It was LOADED. His comment. "I forgot it was loaded because I always have it loaded" ????????
Of course as it sounds they OVER Reacted. Some simple things to do is first get Non functional guns for this use. Or use students guns but EVERYONE is searched (twice at least) AND gun deactivated. Most guns are EASY to remove fireing pin. Small ziplock bag for each student to write serial number down/armorer if students can't handle it. Armorer replaces parts and students hit range for function check.
There are times you do NEED to point a gun at a person you don't WANT to shoot. (for training) It is uncomfortable and I likely WILL hesitate for that reason.
The lesson is ALWAYS double check. Then check again. Don't take anyones word, check it yourself.
basement? gym? classroom? no firearms and no ammo allowed?
BUT they were dry firing inside the building?
There are too many "facts" floating around to follow the story . .
K-Romulus
..........
I have been in a basement that was a gym where we had firearms training. I also was told to take a "real" gun (S&W 4506 IIRC) and point it at instructor and "dry fire" it. I refused and he got tossed OUT of training. Note This was a private citizen "Firearms SAFETY course"
I have also taken a CCWP course where the instructor (A retarded LEO) (ok retired)
Well he had "blue guns" for demo but always used his "REAL GUN" for demo and waved it everywhere. After range session he unholstered it and started class. I stopped him. "THAT GUN IS LOADED He assured me it was not. I insisted. (would have left but the person hosting the class was person I owe a lot and didn't want to make a scene) Finally he agreed to check it. (again showing his stupidity as a normal perons would agree to check "actually do it automaticly" ) Guess what? It was LOADED. His comment. "I forgot it was loaded because I always have it loaded" ????????
Of course as it sounds they OVER Reacted.
Some simple things to do is first get Non functional guns for this use. Or use students guns but EVERYONE is searched (twice at least) AND gun deactivated. Most guns are EASY to remove fireing pin. Small ziplock bag for each student to write serial number down/armorer if students can't handle it. Armorer replaces parts and students hit range for function check. There are times you do NEED to point a gun at a person you don't WANT to shoot. (for training) It is uncomfortable and I likely WILL hesitate for that reason.
The lesson is ALWAYS double check. Then check again. Don't take anyones word, check it yourself.
Somehow missed this story last year... some of the poison in the posts bothers me... specially after some of the "yes it was a ND" posts i've seen/participated in. No one wants to have one. No one. Yes i realize the thread is over a year old.
For most of us an ND = fix the hole in the wall... buy a new TV... etc etc... for that man he will always know in the back of his head he killed someone didn't need killin... and he will always know he did many wrong things on the way there. And it still will not make sense to the 25 years of never having to have had to question himself... because it always worked out before.
Thank whatever power you think of... for many of us... that ours was some poor Zenith no one will miss. Some bit of drywall that never looked at us incriminating.
As for the LEO/Non-LEO side of it. It was obvious his intent was not to kill the student. No more than it is a driver who dozes off to kill the driver on the other side of the road. No more than it is the guy who was minding his own business on the road and managed to kill someone else in a car while he was driving. There ARE accidents. I know we don't like to call them that because they are firearms... but driving a 2 ton vehicle is no less a weapon. I think its funny that we go day to day in our SUV's thinking nothing of the fact that we are yackin on our cel's whilst chompin down a big-mac and driving home from work while listening to the radio.
Its not the tool, its the person behind it... no matter what tool yer driving.
The lesson here is none of us are perfect. I don't care if you never had a vehicular accident, never had a ND, never ran into a wall or a person cause you weren't paying attention. Never cut yourself w/ your OWN knife... NONE of us are perfect. We can only hope that we are more perfect than we think we are.
J/Tharg!
For most of us an ND = fix the hole in the wall... buy a new TV... etc etc... for that man he will always know in the back of his head he killed someone didn't need killin... and he will always know he did many wrong things on the way there. And it still will not make sense to the 25 years of never having to have had to question himself... because it always worked out before.
Thank whatever power you think of... for many of us... that ours was some poor Zenith no one will miss. Some bit of drywall that never looked at us incriminating.
As for the LEO/Non-LEO side of it. It was obvious his intent was not to kill the student. No more than it is a driver who dozes off to kill the driver on the other side of the road. No more than it is the guy who was minding his own business on the road and managed to kill someone else in a car while he was driving. There ARE accidents. I know we don't like to call them that because they are firearms... but driving a 2 ton vehicle is no less a weapon. I think its funny that we go day to day in our SUV's thinking nothing of the fact that we are yackin on our cel's whilst chompin down a big-mac and driving home from work while listening to the radio.
Its not the tool, its the person behind it... no matter what tool yer driving.
The lesson here is none of us are perfect. I don't care if you never had a vehicular accident, never had a ND, never ran into a wall or a person cause you weren't paying attention. Never cut yourself w/ your OWN knife... NONE of us are perfect. We can only hope that we are more perfect than we think we are.
J/Tharg!
cambeul41
Member
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
Can't believe they were not using these things anyway, they are so cheap.....
And now they have ruined their training by saying you cant point one of these at a student. You mean to tell me now that the first time one of these new cops has any kind of weapon pointed at him will be on the street?
There will be more dead cops from that kind of training than from accidental shootings.
One of Many
Member
Operational and non-operational WEAPONS are prohibited. The training dummy guns are not weapons, as they are incapable of being used to discharge a projectile.
Real firearms may be accidentally left in an operable state due to inattention or carelessness, so they are prohibited for activities requiring simulated attack or defense against attack.
Dummy Guns are OK.
Real firearms may be accidentally left in an operable state due to inattention or carelessness, so they are prohibited for activities requiring simulated attack or defense against attack.
Dummy Guns are OK.
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
Which begs the question, why would you ever use anything else?
TexasRifleman asked;
Every simulator has limitations. ASP Red Guns and Rings Blue Guns are great for teaching stances, HTH and for some other force on force applications.
Drills requiring the student to work the action of the weapon require a simulator that allows that. You can't effectively teach presentations, clearing malfunctions or trigger press with a blue gun or red gun.
Do you dry fire at home in your own practice regimen?
There are rules to follow when you are training. Break them and a tragedy like this is the result.
Jeff
Every simulator has limitations. ASP Red Guns and Rings Blue Guns are great for teaching stances, HTH and for some other force on force applications.
Drills requiring the student to work the action of the weapon require a simulator that allows that. You can't effectively teach presentations, clearing malfunctions or trigger press with a blue gun or red gun.
Do you dry fire at home in your own practice regimen?
There are rules to follow when you are training. Break them and a tragedy like this is the result.
Jeff
S_O_Laban
Member
If this had been negligent behavior in the parking lot with a squad car with the same result ( dead recruit) it would hardly make the news and few of us would blink an eye.
There does seem to be a double standard in that negligence with all things except guns seems to be quickly understood and sympathized.
I don't know the instructor but as some else said, I doubt any discipline will punish this man any worse than his own conscience.
Very sad for all.....
There does seem to be a double standard in that negligence with all things except guns seems to be quickly understood and sympathized.
I don't know the instructor but as some else said, I doubt any discipline will punish this man any worse than his own conscience.
Very sad for all.....
Andrew Rothman
Member
Except that in this case, what the instructor did was the equivalent of staying up all night, drinking, doing drugs, putting on a blindfold, and then driving.
He didn't make a single mistake. He broke a long string of safety rules, with utterly predictable tragic results.
[edit: spelling]
Last edited:
ArfinGreebly
Moderator Emeritus
No New Facts?
There having been no new facts presented, I believe this one has run its course.
If there are new facts, please open a new thread and refer to this one within it.
Thank you, and good night.
There having been no new facts presented, I believe this one has run its course.
If there are new facts, please open a new thread and refer to this one within it.
Thank you, and good night.
ArfinGreebly
Moderator Emeritus
Reopened
Oops.
My esteemed colleague has pointed out that post #106 is, indeed, new facts.
Must be my bifolcals.
Sucks to be human.
Reopened.
Oops.
My esteemed colleague has pointed out that post #106 is, indeed, new facts.
Must be my bifolcals.
Sucks to be human.
Reopened.
RustyHammer
Member
Pretty bad ... [old link of DEA agent removed]
Moderator note - The link to the DEA agent shooting himself is not pertinent to the Georgia Sheriff's training incident.
Moderator note - The link to the DEA agent shooting himself is not pertinent to the Georgia Sheriff's training incident.
Last edited by a moderator:
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