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Police use Taser on pregnant woman

Discussion in 'Legal' started by Tall Man, Oct 26, 2004.

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  1. feedthehogs

    feedthehogs Member

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    Mike is right.
    There are always two sides to a story and a paper is going to report something in a sensational way to sell papers.

    My problem is, unless I was there to see it or a video was made, finding the truth from either side will be difficult.

    It will boil down to the cops word against the suspects word and guess who wins the majority of the time?
     
  2. Coronach

    Coronach Moderator Emeritus

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    Really? Which threads were these? The RedSox thread? I'm not going to go back and read that, but IIRC, I think that every 'pro cop' poster on that thread said, at one time or another, that the jury was still out on whether the weapon was used in accordance with policy and training. If this is what you call 'declaring the police to have acted correctly', I think we can safely end this conversation immediately. I can't get my mind around 2+2=3.

    The same goes for the Tasered Grandma. I can't think of a single poster who said that the police action was proper, without question. They merely said that there was a distinct possibility that it could be, and stated a few compelling reasons why.

    I really think you should go back and see 'who said what when'. It might be educational. Compare and contrast the reasonableness of the 'pro-LE' posters with the one-line blanket denunciations.
    lets face it- in the situations where anyone is applauded as a hero in the media, they almost always deserve the attention- usually because they did something obviously heroic, in front of lots of witnesses. This goes for people in and out of uniform
    See? You are learning something! BTW, this also goes for non-cops, too. How many times have we screeched at the media for portraying a guy defending his home or property as a crazed, wild-eyed vigilante?
    Depends on the situation. Active shooter? No, you go get them. Hostage scenario? Talk.
    No, but it is possibly a safe method to effect an arrest of the same woman.
    Thats funny. I do as well. But whenever someone wants to discuss the situation in any manner other than "Wow, those cops are JBTs!" they're a LE apologist and are insisting that the cops are correct. Do you heed you own advice?
    Guess who makes them.
    Nice. Would I like the police to be correct in every instance? Of course I would. Not only does it make me feel good about my profession, but it also means that people are doing the right thing and things are working the way they should. However, are the police right in every instance? Of course not. All I'm ever trying to say is that you usually cannot sift out the right from the wrong in a preliminary news report.

    If you were to go back and do follow-ups on most of the 'terrible' LE stories that get posted here, I'm confident that in most of them the cops could be found to have acted correctly. Certainly not all, but most. However, you almost never hear about the outcomes of investigations and lawsuits where the cops did the right thing. Why? The media does not want to hear it. Its not news. Now, a 14 million dollar verdict against a city because some boneheaded cop decided to break the rules? Thats news.

    In summary, its not about 'winning.' I want the truth to be known. If an officer steps on his peepee, I want him punished. If an officer does the right thing, I want him honored. And until the facts come out, I want the discussion to be reasonable and not resemble an echo chamber of "THAT JACK BOOTED THUG!"

    While I''m on the topic, lets revisit some of the earlier things you 'learned.'
    Well, the reason they are named less lethal is because if you were to name them non-lethal, people would think they are non-lethal. So, they're named less lethal in order to show that they still have some inherent lethality. Non lethal means non lethal. Lethal means lethal. Less lethal means less lethal. I know its hard. You can copy this down and refer to it later if you get confused. ;)
    Please show me where ANYONE stated that Snelgrove deserved to be shot in the face and killed. If you cannot, I'm afraid that I'm going to have to dismiss this one as base rhetorical pandering to emotion. I myself stated multiple times that she certainly did not deserve to die.
    Again, I'd like to see the source for this.

    I think what might be most beneficial is re-reading the posts made by the pro-LE posters. Take a moment to read what they actually say, and don't immediately dismiss them as blind "the cops are right" arguments. Even if you find a few that are, stack them up against the overwhelming number of "the cops are wrong" posts and see if you can reach a conclusion about which "side" is more reasonable in light of our shared belief that 'sometimes the cops are right and somethimes they are wrong.'

    Mike
     
  3. Wildalaska

    Wildalaska member

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    :D

    WildnicepostAlaska
     
  4. Laurent du Var

    Laurent du Var Member

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    God, she is pregnant !

    What is this ?

    Anybody a familyman ? Police officers coming onto your lawn, into your house for loud music ? Nobody wrote about the husband or father of the
    unborn child. I honestly don't know what I would do coming home
    seeing my father in law beaten and handcuffed and a policeofficer
    aiming a taser at my pregnant wife's belly.
    Nothing could ever justify that.

    Bad things come to mind.


    :barf:
     
  5. Zrex

    Zrex Member

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    When I say, "declaring that the police acted correctly", I am talking about the general attitude that: 1) Snelgrove should have left the area 2) If she did not, then she was part of the crowd 3) If you are part of the crowd, then you are a target 4) If you are targeted, you could die and its your own fault.

    Can you see how I might have drawn a conclusion from those statements?

    On to the subject of less lethal weapons. The reason I posted those two items I learned is because: 1) I truly believe there are no less than lethal weapons as some people say 2) An apologist tried making the case that Tasers are not lethal, its just an NAACP myth.


    You wanted a source for, "If you have never been a cop, you wouldn't understand":

    sendec:
    I think what might be most beneficial is re-reading the posts made by the non-pro-LE posters. Take a moment to read not just what they say, but the motivation behind them, and don't immediately dismiss them as blind "the cops are wrong" arguments. One reason people get so upset by these situations is that they themselves have been in a similar place, and these recent posts drive home just how close they came to death or imprisonment.

    Take some examples. My grandmother was 90 and had alzheimers. Sometimes she would do ok, other than the fact she thought I was my father, but other times she would get disoriented. I have been with her in situations, where someone could have called the cops to remove her from a store. How would I feel if it were her getting the taser? How would you feel?

    My brother in law was having a graduation party in his backyard, and it got a little noisy. The local cops showed up, stayed outside and asked to turn the noise down. We complied. Could this have turned bad if the cop came in the yard and would not leave? What if my wife or child got tasered because she tried to stop a cop from hitting my brother in law?

    Ever come out of a large sporting event? Like world series game or stanley cup final? You walk outside, and wait for your wife to meet you so you can walk back to the car. There are crowds of people and mounted officers. Then some a-hole starts messing with the horses and and verbally abusing the officers. Do I abandon my wife and flee? What I read someone say was that if I stick around, I am part of the riot and thus, a target. Or my wife would be if she went out and waited for me if I wasn't there.

    Can you not see yourself in any of those situations, and I don't mean as the LEO, but as the civilian? This is where my frustration comes from. Rational? Probably not, but I have been in situations that with the right set of circumstances would have put me as the bad guy or the dead guy, and lets face it. I know you dont know me, but I bust my ass not to do anything illegal. I have never been arrested. I have my CHL which in texas requires the background stuff. I keep my nose clean. I haven't had a moving violation since 1991. But, I have been in similar situations to the defendents in these stories and that is scary.

    BTW: If you go back and look at my posts, I dont use the terms JBT or Jack Booted Thug.
     
  6. feedthehogs

    feedthehogs Member

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    That statement is a justification in someone's mind of bad police work.

    The real problem is:
    We do understand it which makes being a good police officer that much harder.

    But if the stress can't be handled, there are other lines of work.
     
  7. Art Eatman

    Art Eatman Moderator Emeritus

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    Zrex, I guess I've seen both sides of this crowd-problem stuff. I rode "Buddy Patrol" with the cops in Austin, Texas, back in 1973. I'd been around all during the Vietnam protest stuff. For two years I owned a night club in Austin's 6th St. entertainment district, which after about 10PM is like living in "Drunk City".

    After watching mob behavior, I pretty much tend to be on the side of LEOs when they try to maintain some semblance of reasonable behavior. Just being near an "event" can be pretty darned scary, and I felt this way even at some distance from the serious action.

    I've had occasion to try to reason with drunks who seemed intent on escalating their "fun". Waste of time. You first get a blank look, and are then either ignored or you can sometimes become a target.

    What I've learned is simple: When you see a crowd of drinkers/drunks gathering, leave. Right then. It ain't gonna be interesting enough to justify staying. Without a police presence, they can get violent. With a police presence, they can get violent. I call that a lose/lose situation, and I practice not being there.

    All in all, I'd much rather learn from others' experiences than from my own. Fewer bandages and scars.

    Art
     
  8. sendec

    sendec member

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    FWIW

    I stand by every and all statements I have made. Interpret them as you see fit, right, wrong or indifferent.

    Policing is far more involved than those of you on the outside will ever know. It takes years to learn the craft. The idea that owning a computer makes one qualified to speak to the art of policing is inane. Opinion and anuses...........
     
  9. Zrex

    Zrex Member

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    sendec -

    sorry I dragged you back into this.
     
  10. hammer4nc

    hammer4nc Member

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    ...Besides, if policing is so impossibly esoteric work, it's much easier to totally dismiss any other opinion as troll behavior, rather than form a coherent argument. Isn't that the premise over at glocktalk/coptalk? ;)


    Deal with it! :D
     
  11. longrifleman

    longrifleman Member

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    A point to ponder

    Everyone learns from their own mistakes. Well, most everyone.
    The true test of wisdom is eloquently expressed by Art. As usual.

    Art, had even you figured this out at 24 yrs old? I sure hadn't. I have trouble keeping this in mind even today, and I am way past 24.
     
  12. sendec

    sendec member

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    Me too-

    People here slay me - you have a couple guys with far more patience than I who go out of their way to explain the intricacies of law enforcement, but rather than take an opportunity to learn others would rather just prattle on with their own stereotypes and prejudices.

    I am probably not the only person here who watches those DIY shows like "New Yankee Workshop", but just because I saw Norm do it, that doesnt make me a craftsman. I have all the right in the world to tell a cabinet maker how to cut dovetails, and he or she has the equal right and a responsibility to the profession to tell me I'm full of poop. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

    I'll go now, I have a riot to attend this weekend.
     
  13. CannibalCrowley

    CannibalCrowley Member

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    sebdec
    So you'll be ceasing your criticisms of those in professions that you haven't yet held? Either that or you'll be a blatant hypocrite.

    Art Eatman
    That's not as simple as it sounds. Many times it's impossible for one to leave the area at the time.
     
  14. longrifleman

    longrifleman Member

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    Startin' or stopin'?





    :neener:




    Some of us do want to learn. Sometimes when we learn we are troubled by the direction we see our country taking. (by us I mean me) I have tremendous sympathy for our LEO's who are continually put in no-win situations. But, being human there will be a few bad cops and even the best will make a mistake ocasionally. Also, due to the very nature of the job these problems can get people dead. That justifies the extra scrutiny that LEO's have to deal with. If you cut a dovetail wrong you just waste a board. (I know, I've cut enough wrong myself.)

    The scrutiny should be fair and objective but if the very fact that it happens is unacceptable to LEO's then we have some serious problems.
     
  15. LiquidTension

    LiquidTension Member

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    Forgive me for interrupting the cop-bashing and finger pointing, but I have a few questions:

    Is OC (or any other type of irritant spray) less harmful to unborn children than a Taser? If so, why wasn't it used? Or does the presence of a Taser preclude the carrying of spray? I ask because I've only seen one LEO in my state carrying a Taser - most of them have spray - and don't remember if he also had OC.
     
  16. sendec

    sendec member

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    Devil's night in a college town, lucky us. Lots of victimless crimes like public intox, public urination, projectile vomiting, nudity from those who shouldnt, and the occasional overturned car, firebomb, rape and stabbing. It is one of the few things I crawl out of my cave for cause the locals are chronically outnumbered, on the order of 10,000 to 50.

    Scrutiny implies fairness, impartiality and transparency, none of which occur in this setting. That is fine, cause this is'nt reality anyway, it is an anonymous forum....
     
  17. sendec

    sendec member

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    LT,

    There has'nt been sufficient research to indicate one way or the other the effects of either OC or a Taser on other than adults. Note that the active ingredient in OC is capsicum or capsacian which are natural derivatives of peppers. While incredible irritating to the mother there is nothing to indicate it would cause any trouble to an unborn infant because it wouldnt likely cross the placental barrier. I would bet that the effects would be less than the accidental ingestion of say jalapeos or habaneros because OC works on the respiratory tract. not the digestive system.

    The Taser is also an unknown. I would like a medic who is AED certified to tell us what would happen if they had to lay the paddles to a pregnant person.
     
  18. CannibalCrowley

    CannibalCrowley Member

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    sendec
    An AED is a world apart from a taser. An external defibrillator directs the current through the heart while a taser disributes it through the body. The only way the two could be compared is if the paddles were placed on the woman's stomach. Of course an AED shouldn't allow a shock to take place if this is done, and any one doing so with a standard external defibrillator should have his license revoked and be thrown in prison.
     
  19. Laurent du Var

    Laurent du Var Member

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    Those three little cops

    were just lucky that the big, bad wolf wasn't around while they were inside the house tasing an unborn child in her mother's womb.

    :evil:
     
  20. sendec

    sendec member

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    Am I to assume that you are a medic, nurse, physician, or electrical engineer?

    As I said, research is neede.......never mind:rolleyes:
     
  21. spacemanspiff

    spacemanspiff Senior Member

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    [sarcasm] we wouldnt be having this argument if the police had done their job by mozambiquing everyone at the wedding party and sprinkling crack all over the perps and dropped a few ak-47's at the scene

    [/sarcasm]
     
  22. no_morelipfrom_you

    no_morelipfrom_you Member

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    I'm not a lawyer and I dont play one on TV but from what I understand, they had NO business asking for I.D. in the first place. Nor did they have any business entering her home.


    It was a response to a complaint about loud music, should have been pretty routine, if the music was turned off then the officers should have left. It's when they get overly zealous and want to hammer their authority down that situations like this get escalated into what it is now.
     
  23. Yooper

    Yooper Member

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    Nixon favored the term "expletive" didn't he?

    It's a sad incident, but I wasn't there so I can draw no valid conclusions.
     
  24. CannibalCrowley

    CannibalCrowley Member

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    And AED certified too.
     
  25. sendec

    sendec member

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    So whats the research say? Show us the money.......
     
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