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Poor Guy...

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by natlmatch, Nov 28, 2008.

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  1. natlmatch

    natlmatch Member

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  2. Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow

    Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow member

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  3. R.W.Dale

    R.W.Dale Member

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    it boggles the mind that people will shoot other's reloads. I'm a handloader and I wouldn't dream of shooting someone elses handloads.

    I wonder if the OP feels that the few dollars saved on ammo was a good investment
     
  4. mr.trooper

    mr.trooper Member

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    Thank you for posting that link. It gave me the opportunity to do more research on the M1 Garand and its gas system. The last 15 minutes have opened my eyes. NO weapon that sensitive to reloads deserves the kind of koolaid-fueled mental orgies the M1 Garand induces. (referring to documented history of the platform, NOT this incident specifically.) i hand load as well, and I wouldn't shoot someone else's loads unless i had seen them reload them, and was sure they are competent. I KNOW for sure that i will never be buying a Garand!

    Iv also got to agree with Krochus. It boggles my mind when people pay TOP dollar for a gun, and then feed it the cheapest ammunition available. You wouldn't buy a Ferrari and then fuel it up with 92 octane pump gas from BP...so why would you feed bargain basement ammo to a $1,000 rifle?
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2008
  5. R.W.Dale

    R.W.Dale Member

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    that load would have blown apart just about any rifle the entire case head is GONE. This obviously a case of a powder being used with an entirely incompatible burn rate. I'm wagering a handgun powder
     
  6. Frog48

    Frog48 Member

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    It sucks, and I'm glad he's OK, but I dont have much sympathy.

    He invalidated the warranty himself, by shooting reloads (which is an even worse idea when its somebody else's reloads). Its spelled out plain as day in the owner's manual, which he *should* have downloaded and read before using the rifle. Its a thing called due diligence.

    And whats up with thinking he deserves compensation? Why should someone else be held liable for this guy's own actions (or inactions)?
     
  7. mr.trooper

    mr.trooper Member

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    Read the rest of the post. I was not referring to this specific incident, but rather the long history of Garands and their problems with reloads.

    Again, I specifically stated in my post that i was not referring to this specific incident with that comment. ;)

    i agree on the handgun powder. That was my first though as well. The loader probably got his powders mixed up :(
     
  8. R.W.Dale

    R.W.Dale Member

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    any semiauto rifle is sensitive to burn rate and case condition it isn't just a Garand thing
     
  9. mr.trooper

    mr.trooper Member

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    Are you saying that you shouldn't shoot reloads in any Semi-auto rifle?

    I'm not attacking the legitimacy of the Garand, I'm just saying that this is why I wont own one. To be fair, the only semi-auto rifle i own, or have any ambition to own, is an AK-47. The rest of my rifles are bolt actions.
     
  10. R.W.Dale

    R.W.Dale Member

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    No but I am saying that powder burn rate and case resizing MUST be compatible with whatever semiauto platform you're shooting.

    It's no different than the need to choose the correct octane fuel for a car's engine. Use the wrong stuff and damage can result. But in this case someone used the wrong fuel entirely!
     
  11. mr.trooper

    mr.trooper Member

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    well, yea...
     
  12. longdayjake

    longdayjake Member

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    Well, when you put a product on a shelf or sell one to be put on the shelf, there are laws put in place to protect the people that might be buying said product. When the manufacturer creates a product that results in injury or death of a consumer simply by using the product as it was intended to be used that is something that really is the manufactures fault, and the manufacturer should be liable for any damage caused by the normal intended use of the product. The round was sold to be fired. When firing it, the OP was hurt and so was his property. If the problem is indeed caused by the ammo being too hot, then he deserves compensation. Also, it is illegal to sell reloaded ammo without a manufacturers license.
     
  13. innerpiece

    innerpiece Member

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    agreed longdayjake!
    the store put a gun, and ammo on the shelf... sold them together, something blew up..... thats as bad as it gets.... well allmost!

    bad, bad store! needs to be sued!!
     
  14. Frog48

    Frog48 Member

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    But thats the thing, the product (regardless if it was loaded too hot or not) should not have been used in that rifle in the first place.

    Think of it this way... Should a fuel station or oil company be responsible if I am stupid enough to put diesel in my gas truck? The fact that the product may or may not have been defective is irrelevant if the product was improperly used by the consumer.
     
  15. jpwilly

    jpwilly Member

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    Don't most manufacturers have a clause that voids the warranty if reloaded ammunition is used? Surley none recommend the use of reloaded ammunition.

    From what I see that ammo was way over pressure and caused this but I'm no CSI or Trial Lawyer.

    He probably has a good case against the gun shop as the sale was partially assisted by the clerk. An they could have said no don't shoot this in your Garand.
     
  16. longdayjake

    longdayjake Member

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    The m1 garand shoots .30-06 rounds through it. The manufacturer made .30-06 rounds presumably to be shot from a .30-06. Now, had he bought .308 rounds and tried to shoot them out of his .30-06 rifle then your analogy might have worked. Regardless of what powders you use on reloading for an m1 garand, as long as they don't exceed normal .30-06 pressures then the rifle will shoot them with usually only a risk to the operating rod. The only issues I have heard of when shooting reloads from a garand are from them slamming the operating rod back too hard and bending it. Or the other problem is that it doesn't build enough pressure to operate the gas system which results in a single shot rifle. Any casing that explodes like that is not because of it being shot from the M1, but rather because it was probably charged with pistol powder.

    Now, suppose my car says to use regular unleaded gasoline in my car but I put supreme in. Though my car was not designed to use supreme gas, it can do it just fine and my car will most likely be okay. However if the gas station sold me jet fuel that was labeled as supreme, would my car be okay if I tried to run it on jet fuel. NO!!! The same principle applies here. That bullet would most likely have blown up any gun that it was put into. In fact, I think that that poor guy should be greatful that he was shooting it out of a garand and not a bolt action or he might have a bolt sticking out of his face. Whoever made that bullet deserves to either lose a lot of money to help them learn their lesson or they need to be shut down. I love shooting too much to worry about my face blowing up every time I pull the trigger. Manufacturers should be responsible for their products. If all it had done was bend the operating rod then I would side with you that the guy was completely at fault. But when a bullet turns your rifle into a grenade then the blame shifts from the operator to the manufacturer.
     
  17. Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow

    Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow member

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    +1 to what jake said.
     
  18. MutinousDoug

    MutinousDoug Member

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    The case looks to me from the pics, like it was 1/8th" out of battery when the gun fired and the case ruptured. Bolt lugs appear to be largely undamaged in the pics.
    I may be mistaken of course, and I hope analysis of the remaining rounds shows something conclusive but I'm not convinced of the "bad powder" conclusion.
    That said, I wouldn't shoot anyone else's reloads in any of my Garands (though I have run almost 1K round of various vintage HXP through them, and have more on order).
     
  19. paintballdude902

    paintballdude902 Member

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    ouch

    thats why i reload for a friend of mine he wanted to buy some reloads off the internet i told him i could do it cheaper and reload to the specs safe for the m1

    and since i weigh each charge i knew they would be safe
     
  20. Ignition Override

    Ignition Override Member

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    A guy retired from my company knows a pilot with Fedex who was bitten by a cottonmouth snake which was in a traveling plant nursery from FL.

    Anyway, when he got settled into his hospital room, he simply told the nursery company words to the effect: "When I get out in three days, I expect to see a new Mercedes *** parked at the hospital's curb". He looked every day, disappointed and on the third day there was his brand-new Mercedes convertible, gleaming.

    The point?
    Maybe the plaintiff was a bit selfish, maybe not, but the nursery was very fortunate in a financial sense. They would have had only a limited defense in court after having a poisonous, potentially deadly viper under the floor which held tropical plants etc.
    This same thing happened to a lady in Kansas City in the 70's.

    The OP might have a good case for a new gun and the company which sold it (for example) might be extremely fortunate to only pay for another rifle.
    He might do very well if they settled outside of court. They might settle for a really small sum or the equivalent, without a lawsuit, if they are smart.
    I would demand 10,000 rounds of free Remington ammo to go with the gun to close the deal with no feelings of guilt.
    What, just $3-5,000 for long-term ammo which is safe?
    This would still be a tremendous financial bargain for the seller's or manufacturer's insurance company. There is no doubt that they can afford the very modest sum.
    Don't want to be too graphic, but they are also very lucky that it didn't slice off fingers, an eye, part of a jawbone, or skull.
    Picture the squirming of the defense lawyers in court for that scenario...
    I've read about bankruptcy lawyers retained by a corporation squirming when their lies are uncovered in the Manhattan District...
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2008
  21. Brian Dale

    Brian Dale Member

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    Longdayjake, I like your analogy at Post #16. If I may, I'd like to suggest one change--jet fuel isn't as volatile as gasoline, so my suggestion is this (in boldface):
    Most folks have seen diethyl ether sold in spray cans for starting cars in cold weather. It's very flammable. Putting it in your gas tank would be like like shooting a .30-'06 cartridge loaded with pistol powder.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2008
  22. WardenWolf

    WardenWolf member

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    That makes me positively sick. I'd sue, all right, but the guy was stupid in using a reload.
     
  23. MilsurpShooter

    MilsurpShooter Member

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    Holy... Guys lucky that all he's missing is some money. I reload myself and still after doing so many rounds find myself double and triple checking just so what happened to him doesn't happen to me.
     
  24. paintballdude902

    paintballdude902 Member

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    jay yep me too

    when your doing something that after a time gets to be repetative you find your self not always paying the attention you should i accidentally loaded some .45colt with the wrong powder (i think unique when i wanted green dot) and i was lucky i pulled 1 appart and checked and it was the wrong powder but then i looked up load for the powder i used and it was safe

    turned out to be a darn good load lol
     
  25. MCMXI

    MCMXI Member

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    Are you sure about that? The guys from Guns and Ammo have done numerous "catastrophic failure" tests with bolt actions and nothing has ever come back at the shooter. Modern rifles at least are designed to fail "away" from the shooter so other folks at the range are probably going to eat it rather than the shooter. Comforting thought isn't it? I saw one episode where they loaded a .300 Win Mag case with 70 grains of Bullseye and upon firing in the test rifle, the whole receiver flew apart but nothing came back at the cardboard cutout sitting behind the rifle.

    :)
     
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