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Portland OR PD to stop using Glock .45

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by gunsmith, Mar 13, 2004.

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  1. gunsmith

    gunsmith member

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    I don't know if they are talking about the new .45 Glock introduced ,or if they were having problems with double stacked mags.
    http://www.katu.com/news/story.asp?ID=65410
    Portland Police to change firearms after failures...
    The Portland Police Bureau is discontinuing the use of a certain kind of handgun.
    Chief Derrick Foxworth has ordered all of his officers to quit using Glock .45 caliber handguns like this.

    The guns apparently failed during firearms training at the beginning of the month, about 250 officers are currently carrying these guns.

    The chief now wants them to start using Glock 9 millimeters.

    He says the police bureau has not had the same kind of problems it has had with the .45 caliber firearms.
     
  2. tlhelmer

    tlhelmer Member

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    I read the article. I didnt see what type of failures they were having. Does anyone know?
     
  3. Stickjockey

    Stickjockey Member

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    From the article on kgw.com, sounds like the same type of KB's that the .40SW Glocks are known for.

    I believe they're 21's.
     
  4. PromptCritical

    PromptCritical Member

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    I am originaly from Portland, but that is not why I'm writing this. I own a Glock 21C and have fired way more rounds out of it than any police officer will ever fire out of his. Ok, I may be exagerating. Seriously, though, I have shot at least 5000 rounds thru mine and I have hardly ever had a malfunction, let alone a kaboom.
    They want to go back to Glock 17's? That is a ludicrous idea. Good guns, and all, just not enough punch, IMO. No flames, Please. Not trying to start a 9mm vs. .45ACP war.
     
  5. nipprdog

    nipprdog Member

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    stickjockey,

    could you post the article?

    can't read without registering.:D
     
  6. fastbolt

    fastbolt Member

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  7. nipprdog

    nipprdog Member

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    thanx, fastbolt.
     
  8. Stickjockey

    Stickjockey Member

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    There ya go, nippr!
     
  9. nipprdog

    nipprdog Member

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    thanx stickjockey!
     
  10. TBeck

    TBeck Member

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    I already posted the link to this issue on another Glock thread but here it is again. It comes from Dean Spier's THE GUN ZONE. Scroll down to the bottom to see the PPB bulletin.



    PPB Glock 21 kB!

    I like Glocks and I carried a Glock 21 for years. But Glock has a serious engineering flaw in their large-bore (>9mm) models. The cartridge case is not fully supported at the feed ramp and the gun can fire while not fully in battery. I think Glock did this to increase reliability in feeding, but the result is a small but definite number of the pistols "spontaneously disassemble" from time to time.
     
  11. DMK

    DMK Member

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    LOL! Good term. :D
     
  12. turbonatr

    turbonatr Member

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    The gun shown on thegunzone.com blew up while shooting 200gr. semi-wadcutters (reloads, LEAD reloads at that) which is a big no-no in Glock barrels. It shouldn't be a surprise that the pressures rose to dangerous levels which caused this. It also goes on to say he "may have" DOUBLE CHARGED this particular load which used brass that was "probably old". Geeze, talk about a recipe for disaster!!

    Natures natural selection process, I suppose.
     
  13. Boats

    Boats member

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    Alas, PERFECTION continues on unabated by reality.
     
  14. TheFederalistWeasel

    TheFederalistWeasel member

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    Okay honest question here, not trying to Glock bash.

    I carry a Glock 22 on duty, which is mandated by my department. I fully understand why people are experiencing KB’s in the G22, the chamber support issue, hot loads and carbon buildup in the chamber /barrel.

    Is the G21 .45 suffering from the same issues?

    I thought the .45 had a fully supported chamber?

    I really want honest answers here cuz I was seriously thinking of asking the Chief if he’d consider letting me carry the G21 over the .40 because of the KB issue.

    We had a KB last month and a department south of us had an officer suffer the partial loss of a finger due to a Glock mishap with a G23.


    Fed

    :confused:
     
  15. Baba Louie

    Baba Louie Member

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    FWIW
    When taking my first CCW class, our instructor, a retired Marine Gunnery Sargent, shooter par excellance (USMC Rifle team, etc, and GLOCK Armourer) told us... or warned us of this "unsupported" area in the G21 and G30 Glock barrels. He did go on to say that Bar-Sto of 29 Palms had barrels which fully supports the chambered round. So for $200 extra you can purchase a barrel which has a little more "Perfection" than that found in the stock product.
    Whereas I don't doubt him for a minute, I've never looked into it and BarSto's website offers no language to that effect, but I do know that they do whatever it takes to keep the USMC happy.
    http://barsto.com/

    Just a FWIW FYI
     
  16. roscoe

    roscoe Member

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    OWWW! My brain hurts just reading that sentence.
     
  17. turbonatr

    turbonatr Member

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    It is the lead build-up that causes unsafe pressures in the barrel, not carbon. This is why lead is NOT to be fired through a Glock barrel. Reloaded ammo is almost always the cause. The few factory incidents that occur seem to be with Federal ammunition which apparently uses the thinnest brass (Winchester using the thickest). I have also heard reports that a good number of the factory ammo mishaps happened with a cartridge that has been chambered more than once.

    I am unaware of ANY gun that uses a truely 100% fully supported chamber. Matter of fact, good ole Dean has a pic of a .40 caliber Glock blown up on his site which used an AFTERMARKET barrel (Jarvis of BarSto, I don't recall) chambered in .357Sig at that! I guess he though nobody would catch that.:rolleyes:

    Last I heard, Glock turns out SEVEN .40 caliber pistols to one of all the other caliber guns. Naturally, you will hear more problems with this caliber pistol. Your'e probably more likely to be struck by lightning than have a Glock blow up in your hand even with reloads. Even less likely to have a problem with factory ammo.

    I have personally have seen Sigs, Smiths, Berettas, a USP and even one Raging Bull in 454 Casull blow up in the shooters hands. It can and will happen to all of them. Funny, if Glock used full supported chambers and had feed failures more often, they would be mocked for that.

    But at least they wouldn't blow up, right?

    :rolleyes:
     
  18. fastbolt

    fastbolt Member

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    Unfortunately, this is probably going to be getting a lot of attention, if only because Glock owners and enthusiasts are going to feel compelled to "defend" their favorite make of handgun, or else they're going to suspect this isn't a gun-related problem. Too bad, because a lot of other "problems" surface from time to time with commonly used L/E weapons, of all makes, and generally these problems are resolved in one way or another without it making the rounds of the public forums with a lot of fanfare.

    Of course, sometimes they DO make the rounds ... Look at the previous Beretta slide cracking issue, and how it's come back around with the weapon malfunctions reportedly caused by slides cracking on LASD weapons. From what I was given to understand, they're still pleased with the weapon model, and are going to be addressing what they suspect may be the underlying causes of such failures. Time will tell ...

    On the other hand, this isn't the first time that G21's, and even G30's for that matter, have been mentioned regarding some weapons which have suffered damage while shooting factory ammunition. This subject is an easy one to find and read about on various firearms boards ...
    http://64.177.53.248/ubb/Forum78/HTML/000252.html

    If it's correct that the Portland PD has obtained initial "lab" results showing the ammunition samples to be within normal pressure tolerances, then you could see how they might decide to pull the weapons out of service ... at least temporarily ... until further discussions with both Glock and Federal. This would seem to be simple common sense. Nobody wants to see anyone at risk for potential injury, and nobody wants to have the PD folks feel uneasy and uncertain about whether their service weapons will perform properly for them in actual situations.

    We'll probably see some resolution to this that satisfies everyone involved, especially considering the favorable reputations of the two manufacturers involved ... even if it doesn't satisfy the firearms enthusiasts and owners on the public forums, such as this one and GT.

    This may not be the only agency to discontinue using the G21, or the G30, either ...

    I learned of a small local agency that recently discontinued use of their .45 ACP G30's, and switched to .40 S&W Glocks (I haven't had time to confirm the exact model). This doesn't surprise me, in a way ... because the last time I was involved with their agency at a range qualification, when the G30's were adopted and issued, there were at least half a dozen of the folks that experienced what appeared to be ammunition related functioning problems (Speer 200gr+P GD) possibly due to the increased slide velocities and recoil impulse ... and one shooter that was using an older, personally owned G30 who appeared to have a magazine (spring?) related functioning issue. Let's face it, using +P .45 ACP ammunition in smaller framed .45 weapons can sometimes cause issues for some shooters. Although they changed to a different brand of +P ammunition at some point, apparently they finally decided that the .40 S&W was a better choice for their needs.

    I was watching someone function test a couple of .45's with some Ranger T-Series RA45TP ammunition the other day. Using the ammunition in a full sized, all steel 1911 model the pistol & ammuntion combination functioned just fine, as expected. In a lightweight Commander, however, the slide failed to lock back when the magazines were empty ... and these were the same magazines being used in the steel weapon, and were new, high quality magazines. The opinion of the armorer doing the shooting was simply that the increased slide velocity generated by the +P ammunition was the cause. The weapon functions perfectly fine using the standard pressure RA45T version.

    Well, I've never been a fan of +P .45 ACP ammunition, myself. I've also experienced functioning issues in different weapons that appeared to be directly related to the increased slide velocities of different +P ammunition. I've even spoken to a couple of firearms manufacturers that admitted that the increasing popularity of much of today's +P .45 ACP ammunition was causing them some headaches. Balancing slide mass and recoil spring rates to produce reliable functioning with just about anybody's standard pressure ammunition was apparently much easier before a lot of folks jumped on the +P "magnumizing" bandwagon ... and that was with full size weapon platforms. Now, with the constantly shrinking .45 platforms, it's apparently become a bit more "interesting" ...

    Getting back to the G21 topic, though ...

    Since it isn't my agency, I won't list the name, but I've been listening to a reputable firearms/armorer instructor recently, as well as a L/E distributor for a couple of firearms manufacturers ... and they've both, separately, told me about an agency that is apparently on the verge of discontinuing use of their G21's, after having used them for several years. The cause, IF it occurs, would NOT be because of any reported failures similar to the Portland PD situation, but a different issue supposedly causing malfunctions and agency concerns. This agency has a bit less than 3,000 weapons in service, and this isn't the first time they've had a concern with a functioning problem with their weapons. The last time I heard about it, a few years ago, it was a magazine issue, which was resolved.

    From what I've been told by these two different sources familiar with the situation, either the concern with the G21's will be addressed and resolved to the agency's satisfaction, the G21's may be replaced with G22's ... or else the agency will return to using another make of weapon, chambered in .45 ACP. Time will tell ...

    That certainly doesn't mean the G21 isn't a fine firearm, though, or that all of the non-L/E owners who have them and have enjoyed perfectly reliable functioning are wrong ... ;)

    It's always something ...
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2004
  19. turbonatr

    turbonatr Member

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    I would be interested to know the ratio of rounds gone downrange versus the number of rounds that caused problems with the agency that is having G21 problems.

    It's funny how when a few hundred thousand rounds go downrange without incident you don't hear about how awesome the firearm is, but when the first problem arrises people come out of the wood work to bash that particular gun which ever it may be.

    I also don't think Glock owners are the most "defensive" when it comes to their guns. In my experience, it seems 1911 owners are typically the owns that, shall we say, energenically defends thier beloved pistol. Maybe it has something to so with the long-running popularity of the gun or it's time with our armed forces...maybe a little of both and then some.

    I own firearms of all makes and models and give credit where it is due to each of them. They all have their strong points and their weaknesses. One thing is for sure, none of their manufactures send me "loyalty checks" in the mail to get into arguements over the interent over theirs being the best. So, I do not.
     
  20. Double Maduro

    Double Maduro Member

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    I believe that the Oregonian article said that the Kboom was caused by the round not chambering completely and going off anyway. This was reenforced in a conversation with a Portland Police Officer yesterday.

    Also I beleive these were factory rounds, again according to the PO.

    I have nothing against glocks, except they don't fit my hands. But when the stories keep popping up, and at a higher rate than for other pistols, you begin to wonder. I also find it interresting that the glockies always want to blame the ammo, before any real info is available.

    Bad ammo can and does cause kbooms but it seems that Glocks are more susceptible to it. Again, I am not knocking glocks or those who love them, I am just wondering why these things happen, or seem to happen, to glocks more often than to other makes.

    Maybe it is a big anti glock conspiracy, we only mention the kbooms that happen in glocks and nothing else.

    The officer I talked to carried one of the G 21's and loved it. He is not happy about having to give it up.

    DM
     
  21. fastbolt

    fastbolt Member

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    I can't answer that question at this time, although I can say that from what we were told, this isn't exactly an "overnight", single occurrence issue which is causing a "knee-jerk reaction". The agency worked with Glock to resolve their previous "reported" magazine-related problem, and they're trying to get this problem resolved as well. They apparently aren't the sort of folks that would unreasonably "jump" at the first sign of some issue or other. Depending on Glock's response, though, it may very well result in a change of caliber, or manufacturer ...

    I've got to ask ... what's your favorite brand(s) of cigar? My cigar vice is a recently acquired one, only about 4+ months old ... but I could've bought a couple of new guns for the money I've invested in it in that time.;) It's amazing how many folks I know at work, including at least one vendor I talk to during my range duties, that are cigar smokers ... I juest never realized it.
     
  22. Double Maduro

    Double Maduro Member

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    Fastbolt,

    My favorite cigar of any is the Montechristo #5. However it is from Cuba and is not available here.

    My Favorite non Cuban is the Padron Anniversary Principe Maduro.

    Other favorites are Hoyo de Montery Rothschild Double Maduro
    Padron 2000,3000 4000 maduros

    Yep, I could have bought sevral new weapons for what I have spent on cigars, but we all make our choices.

    What do you like in the way of cigars?

    In fire arms I like my Ruger P90 and 22/45.
    I like my Makarov a lot more than I thought I would, saw it at the shop and couldn't put it down.

    I'll save my preferrence in long arms for another thread. Don't want to hijack this one.

    By the way, here is a link to the Oregonian article.

    http://www.oregonlive.com/search/index.ssf?/base/news/1079183259140830.xml?oregonian?lcps

    DM
     
  23. turbonatr

    turbonatr Member

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    I would think you hear about it more with Glocks than other brands since Glock has (last I heard) more than 50% of LE contracts. Glocks are also very popular with carry permit holders. Also, people seem to flat-out ignore Glock's explicit warning NOT to shoot lead in their barrels. People do it anyway. Again, perhaps natures natural selection process. Glock owners are quick to blame ammo since so many people ignore this warning and pay the price.

    I am sure that this isn't the sole incident with this agency, but I am willing to bet hundreds of thousands more rounds have hit the departments backstop than have blown up guns.

    At any rate, I will continue to shoot my Glocks, Smiths, 1911s, etc. without fear. It isn't worth worrying about, IMHO.
     
  24. TBeck

    TBeck Member

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    The round in question was a Federal Hi-Shok, so I doubt lead buildup was an issue. Two guns on the same PD experienced catastrophic failures.

    I am not arguing that Glocks are tough and reliable. My G21 survived an obstructed barrel from an American Ammunition squib with no more damage than a bulged barrel. The only failures my G21 ever had were with that ammo. So it was pretty obvious that the ammo was at fault.

    Ford has sold umpteen thousand Explorers. Let's say that there was a small but real chance that turning the ignition switch on your Explorer could result in the steering column catching fire. It didn't happen often, but it did happen. You would reasonably expect Ford to issue a safety recall to fix the current cars and then change the design to prevent future cars from being affected.

    Glock refuses to admit there is a problem. They won't even change the design of the barrels to eliminate this risk in the future! The Emperor's new clothes are perfect!
     
  25. turbonatr

    turbonatr Member

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    As posted above, Federal ammunition was by far the most found in these incidents when factory ammo was, indeed, the ammo fired. Federal, IIRC, was also the most popular ammo where bullet set-back was to blame. Combine that with thin brass, and it also appears Federal may have a problem that needs to be addressed.

    For the record, I have fired approximately 6000 rounds of 45 Super between my G21C and G30. This does not include the standard pressure and +P .45acp ammo I have fired in them. My guns are still in as-new condition and I still have all of my appendages. I cannot speak for anyone else, but my experience with Glocks has been 100% statisfactory. I only wish some of the cars I have owned were so reliable!
     
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