Possession or Transfer?

[Howa 9700]

Lets assume a relative needs to travel abroad for a couple years, and asks me to hold his weapons while he is gone. Or I do the same and ask a friend or relative to hold my guns in his safe while I"m gone. He is allowed to use them, but they are not his. They are still mine and I will want them back when I return. Nobody is a felon or has any other restriction on ownership or possession.

Does such an arrangement put either person in violation of 4473 : 21a or b?

 

[dogtown tom]

Lets assume a relative needs to travel abroad for a couple years, and asks me to hold his weapons while he is gone.

As far as federal law.....
If the relative is a resident of the same state, you can maintain possession. If on his return, he is no longer a resident of your state, then you'll have to transfer those firearms to an FFL in his current state of residence.
If he is a resident of another state, the firearms would need to be secured where only the lawful possessor has access. (such as a locked box/case/safe with your relative having the key)

Or I do the same and ask a friend or relative to hold my guns in his safe while I"m gone. He is allowed to use them, but they are not his. They are still mine and I will want them back when I return. Nobody is a felon or has any other restriction on ownership or possession.

Same as above.

If your state has a law that requires a "universal background check", firearm registration, etc......consult someone knowledgeable in your states firearm law.

Does such an arrangement put either person in violation of 4473 : 21a or b?

The Form 4473 is an ATF form used only by licensed dealers to transfer a firearm to a customer.

 

[Frank Ettin]

....They are still mine ...

The thing is that laws regarding the transfer of firearms are about possession, not ownership. So giving someone a gun to store for you is a transfer, and it therefore must be done in a manner that complies with applicable firearm transfer laws. So if the transferor and transferee are residents of the same State, state law applies. If they are residents of different States, federal law also applies.

• Possession means:
  

  1 a : the act of having or taking into control...

• Transfer is about possession, not ownership.
  
  Some definitions of "transfer" (emphasis added):
  
  
  • http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/transfer:
    
    

    ...Transfer encompasses the sale and every other method, direct or indirect, of (1) disposing of property or an interest therein or possession thereof;...

  • http://www.thefreedictionary.com/transferred:

    2. Law To make over the possession or legal title of; convey.

  • http://law.yourdictionary.com/transfer:

    Any and every method of removing something from one person or place to another; specifically, the handing over of possession or control of assets or title. ...

  
  
• Note possession is broader than ownership. See U.S. v. Booth, 111 F.3d 1 (C.A.1 (Mass.), 1997, at 1):

  ...The law recognizes two kinds of possession, actual possession and constructive possession.... Even when a person does not actually possess an object, he may be in constructive possession of it. Constructive possession exists when a person knowingly has the power and the intention at a given time of exercising dominion and control over an object or over the area in which the object is located. The law recognizes no distinction between actual and constructive possession, either form of possession is sufficient. Possession of an object may be established by either direct evidence or by circumstantial evidence. It is not necessary to prove ownership of the object,...

 

[Howa 9700]

Sounds a bit dicey as described. Say Grandad had a few guns he allowed grandkids to use. But grandad has passed, grandmother still has them and kids and grandkids still using them. Say a deer rifle gets taken off site during deer season. Returned a week later. Innocent enough and done all over the place. Or one of the kids leaves his guns at mother's house during hunting season, as the farm she lives on is where he hunts.

Or grandmother decides she wants to winter in Texas, but does not want to leave valuables like jewelry, firearms etc. in the house to be stolen, so asks a neighbor to store them in his gun safe till she gets back.

As described, technically she has surrendered possession, but not ownership. But if that is a violation in any state, I'm sure it is going to be news to the millions of folks who do that all the time.

 

[dogtown tom]

Sounds a bit dicey as described. Say Grandad had a few guns he allowed grandkids to use. But grandad has passed, grandmother still has them and kids and grandkids still using them. Say a deer rifle gets taken off site during deer season. Returned a week later. Innocent enough and done all over the place. Or one of the kids leaves his guns at mother's house during hunting season, as the farm she lives on is where he hunts.

There is nothing "dicey" in the OP, nor in your scenario. As described above nothing violates federal law.

Or grandmother decides she wants to winter in Texas, but does not want to leave valuables like jewelry, firearms etc. in the house to be stolen, so asks a neighbor to store them in his gun safe till she gets back.

As I noted in my first post, residency matters. If the grandmother is a resident of state X, she can leave firearms with anyone she wants. When she returns to that state, she is once again considered a resident and can regain possession without violating any federal law.

 

[LimaCharlie]

You are good with federal law. If you live in Oregon, you can be in trouble. All transfers except for immediate family must go through an FFL with a background check. This even applies if you are lending a buddy a gun for hunting season. You can let someone shoot your gun if you are there and maintain control.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Sounds a bit dicey as described. Say Grandad had a few guns he allowed grandkids to use. But grandad has passed, grandmother still has them and kids and grandkids still using them. Say a deer rifle gets taken off site during deer season. Returned a week later. Innocent enough and done all over the place. Or one of the kids leaves his guns at mother's house during hunting season, as the farm she lives on is where he hunts...

There is nothing "dicey" in the OP, nor in your scenario. As described above nothing violates federal law....

As long as everyone is a resident of the same State. And even when everyone is a resident of the same State, state law on firearm transfer must be considered.

 

[dogtown tom]

As long as everyone is a resident of the same State. And even when everyone is a resident of the same State, state law on firearm transfer must be considered.

Even if they are not residents of the same state, the temporary loan of a firearm is perfectly legal.

§ 478.30 Out-of-State disposition of firearms by nonlicensees.

No nonlicensee shall transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any other nonlicensee, who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides: Provided, That the provisions of this section:

(a) shall not apply to the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or any acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence; and

(b) shall not apply to the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Even if they are not residents of the same state, the temporary loan of a firearm is perfectly legal.

Maybe and maybe not. California rules on loaning guns are more complicated, and under some circumstances such loan would not be legal. I’m not sure about New York.

 

[12Bravo20]

Lets assume a relative needs to travel abroad for a couple years, and asks me to hold his weapons while he is gone. Or I do the same and ask a friend or relative to hold my guns in his safe while I"m gone. He is allowed to use them, but they are not his. They are still mine and I will want them back when I return. Nobody is a felon or has any other restriction on ownership or possession.

Does such an arrangement put either person in violation of 4473 : 21a or b?

Here is one solution that is normally 100% legal (depending on state laws). Have your friend place all of his firearms in a locked container that he and only he has access to. That is perfectly legal on the federal level. But that also means that no one else can access his firearms while he is overseas. This is how countless military personnel have done things for years.

 

[CoalTrain49]

You are good with federal law. If you live in Oregon, you can be in trouble. All transfers except for immediate family must go through an FFL with a background check. This even applies if you are lending a buddy a gun for hunting season. You can let someone shoot your gun if you are there and maintain control.

WA would be a hard no also. The OP needs to research his/her state laws regarding transfers.

 

[dogtown tom]

Maybe and maybe not. California rules on loaning guns are more complicated, and under some circumstances such loan would not be legal. I’m not sure about New York.

Maybe and maybe not nothing.
I made it perfectly clear that I was referring to federal law.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Maybe and maybe not nothing.
I made it perfectly clear that I was referring to federal law.

Yes you did. But as such, your answer was incomplete.

 

[Frank Ettin]

I think the ground has been covered.