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Potential Straw Purchase Scenario

Discussion in 'Legal' started by The Glockodile, Jan 18, 2022.

  1. Rule3

    Rule3 Member

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    How about posting this from the ATF which explains Straw Purchases without having to read all kinds of posts? Much easier to read.

    What is a Straw Purchase?

    https://www.atf.gov/file/155116/download
     
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  2. 45CalPal

    45CalPal Member

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    heads up for everyone the above is a PDF file.
     
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  3. Frank Ettin

    Frank Ettin Moderator Staff Member

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    And from that ATF Article (emphasis added):
     
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  4. CapnMac

    CapnMac Member

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    Really, this is pretty simple.
    If you think it's a Straw Purchase, it is a Straw Purchase.
    If you think you have a clever work-around, it's a Straw Purchase.
    If your FFL let you do it before, it's still a Straw Purchase.
    If you "got away with it" and a platoon of LEO did not jump out of the weeds and haul you to gaol, it's still Straw Purchase.

    Tom nailed it above. Buy your own guns.
     
  5. jmorris

    jmorris Member

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    I always liked this answer.


    Really do need to know what location.

    https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/statute-of-limitations-by-state
     
  6. 45CalPal

    45CalPal Member

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    I know this was a quoate by you and not your question, however

    The straw purchase is defined as a federal law and in its base form is just plain illegal.

    How would a statute of limitation even begin to enter this topic?

    Is it the assumption (of that poster) that if enough time passes it will somehow no longer be considered illegal?

    yeah ok....LOL
     
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  7. danez71

    danez71 Member

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    Are these rhetorical questions?

    If you know the answer, please feel free to contribute.
     
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  8. danez71

    danez71 Member

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    CA at the time - about 25 yrs ago.

    I know of a transaction thru a FFL that was well intended and no prohibited persons involved but I always wondered if it technically was a straw purchase.

    Everything was disclosed to the FFL prior to deciding which guns to buy.

    Basically, 2 friends want to buy guns.
    Person A has a credit card.
    Person B has no credit and not enough cash.

    Person B agrees in advance to pay person A back later.

    Again, everything disclosed to FFL up front including that person B was going to pay person A back later.

    Person A and B both pick out guns. Both fill out their own 4473.

    Person B gets to 'actual buyer' question and asks FFL about question because person A will be the one paying for both guns.

    FFL says to check the box for Yes, he is the actual buyer.
     
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  9. jmorris

    jmorris Member

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    Likely a good lawyer trying to keep his client from going to jail. And it’s not at all about an action being considered legal or not. Think of it as a time limit to initiate proceedings.

    Like this fellow that lied on a 4473, and the case was dismissed because of the statute of limitations.

    https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/FSupp/931/1306/2346705/

     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2022
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  10. dogtown tom

    dogtown tom Member

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    There is more than one idiot in that transaction.;)
     
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  11. danez71

    danez71 Member

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    .... but honest, lol.

    I thought it was odd back then but chocked it up to the 'FFL is the expert' and they were all open about it from what they told me.
     
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  12. RetiredUSNChief

    RetiredUSNChief Member

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    I like how people make this subject more convoluted than they ought to.

    If you want to buy a gun, then YOU buy the gun.

    If you want to gift a gun, then YOU gift the gun.

    If your friend wants to buy a gun, then HE can buy the gun.

    If you want to mix someone else's money into this...then you're fixin' to potentially mess up. Because now you're going to have to show yourself to be an agent of the actual purchaser and, while this is perfectly legal, it starts to cloud the issue. I don't know about you guys, but I don't really want to "cloud the issue" on a matter which may end up with me taking it up the tailpipe on federal charges if I mess things up.

    Why not just keep it clean and simple?

    My son (22) wants me to buy him a handgun. I could do this perfectly legally. But the SIMPLEST way to do this is to gift him the money and let him buy it on his own.

    I suppose we can always come up with these scenarios here, and there will always be the likes of @Frank Ettin and company to keep us straight. Besides...I haven't retained Frank's services, either, so there's that!
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2022
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  13. dogtown tom

    dogtown tom Member

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    The reason I said there is "more than one idiot" has less to do with the straw/not straw situation and more to do with the FFL telling a buyer/transferee how to answer the Form 4473 and a customer not reading the instructions.

    NO dealer should be telling the buyer/transferee how to answer the questions on the 4473. If asked, the dealer should be familiar with the instruction printed on every 4473. Have the customer read them.
    NO dealer should be telling buyer/transferees that their drivers license address must match the current residence address on the 4473. If the buyer wrires in the address on his DL, simply to make them match? He may be committing a felony unless he actually resides at that address.
     
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  14. danez71

    danez71 Member

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    Agreed. That's true then as it is now.

    I think back then, the 2 buyers were still of the mind set that the FFL was the expert and trustful of good answers to their honest full disclosure questions.

    Which of course was also wrong back then as it is now... just not on the forefront of their minds at their age.
     
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  15. Insignificant bill

    Insignificant bill Member

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    Absolutely the purchaser should always read every question for themselves.
     
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  16. dogtown tom

    dogtown tom Member

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    "What are things that will never happen?, Alex"
     
  17. Insignificant bill

    Insignificant bill Member

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    Tom, I have a question about every agency you have to notify on multiple gun purchases from an FFL in Texas
     
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  18. sota

    sota Member

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    Funny. I always did. You never know when they'll change something and trip you up.
    Also my FFL has ALWAYS made a point of saying he cannot help with answering a 4437 EVER.
     
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  19. dogtown tom

    dogtown tom Member

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    Dealers are required by federal law to report the sale two or more handguns to the same buyer in any five business day period. (It's the dealers business days)
    The dealer completes an ATF Multiple Sale form https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/f...pistols-and-revolvers-atf-form-33104/download and mails/faxes/emails it to ATF at the close of that business day. Its a three part form, one to ATF, one to the local "Chief Law Enforcement Officer" and the third gets stapled to your 4473. I mail mine to the Plano PD. (its my CLEO, not the buyers CLEO)

    Licensed dealers in California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas are required to report the Multiple Sale of Certain Rifles: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/f...ition-certain-rifles-atf-form-331012/download Again two or more for the same buyer in any five business day period. Oddly, its only licensed dealers, not those of us with an 07FFL Manufacturer.
    This form has single-handedly stopped gun crime in Mexico. The cartels are wholly and completely perplexed on how to obtain guns now. :rofl:
     
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  20. Insignificant bill

    Insignificant bill Member

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    Thanks Tom I knew you had to notify the ATF, wasn't aware of local LE
     
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  21. dogtown tom

    dogtown tom Member

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    3-5 times a week someone will remark "they're always changing this form!" They really don't. The current form was revised in May 2020 and before that in 2016 I believe.
    The only way to get tripped up is to not read the question or the instruction to the question.

    I too will not tell a customer how to answer, but I'm happy to read the question to them. Not every ones eyes see as good as they did at age 25. Add in the customers who are dyslexic or those where English is not their first language. More than once I've had customers come in with a form already filled in....I cant take that. The form must be completed at the dealers premises in person. Its fine to use your prefilled form as a guide to the one filled out in front of me.
     
  22. danez71

    danez71 Member

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    One of the 1st things I do when I'm handed a 4473 is look here.


    Screenshot_20220303-125606_Chrome.jpg
     
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  23. dogtown tom

    dogtown tom Member

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    About eight or ten years ago at the Dallas Market Hall show:
    An FFL came to my table asking "do you have any extra yellow sheets?"
    I said "What?" o_O
    He said "You know, the gun forms, I'm a dealer"
    I said "they quit the yellow 4473's in 2008 all I have is white"
    The look he gave me was priceless "well I don't do very many sales".
    And then he walked two tables over and asked another dealer if he had any yellow sheets.:rofl:
    I would have paid to sit in on his next compliance inspection. Likely due to his allegedly low volume he had never had one.
     
  24. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

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    I was wondering about that.
    There are illiterates with money, and untold numbers of functional illiterates.

    Would inability to read and write be a disqualifier? Or a discrimination lawsuit in the making?
     
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  25. dogtown tom

    dogtown tom Member

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    No, its covered in the instructions in the 4473.
    If the buyer is unable to read or write, the answers (other than the signature) may be completed by another person, excluding the transferor/seller. Two persons (other than the transferor/seller) must then sign as witnesses.


    Not everything in life is discrimination.
     
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