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Potentially Stupid AR Idea...

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by Dionysusigma, Jul 2, 2007.

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  1. Dionysusigma

    Dionysusigma Member

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    Well, the funds are building up to get my AR completed... and I think I just had a... what's it called... like a headache, but with pictures... :uhoh:

    Anyhoo, I was thinking of how to get as much out of my AR as possible. I want an autoloading rifle that can reach out to 400 yards easily (and have the optics to do so), but also be able (in a pinch) be great for CQB stuff in case I ever get a chance to get into 3gun.

    So here's what I was thinking... a flat-top, midlength 16" A2-profile-barrel with a quad-rail handguard. A decent-ish scope up top, but on the right rail of the handguard...

    ...mount an EOTech. Use the scope for longer distances, and for closer-in stuff, rotate the rifle 90 degrees counterclockwise. Theoretically, the rail's still over the bore axis, a cheek weld is still possible, and the only downsides are that 1) the brass is going straight up and 2) you might get a weird look from others (which I really don't mind, since that happens a lot anyway :D ). Might even be a boon for prone position, since the magazine (and grip, come to think of it) is now effectively sticking out the side.

    So, whaddya think? Good idea or bad? :eek:
     
  2. LoadedDrum

    LoadedDrum Member

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    What you are describing is quite common in 3-gun, although their short range sights are typically irons. Ideally, you could use one of the rail systems that lets you mount the short range sights at 45 degrees like that DPMS 6 rail HG or one of the fancy JP's. It works quite well.
     
  3. DougW

    DougW Member

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    The Eotech is great for CQB. I would not worry about rotating the rifle. If anything, point and shoot up close.
     
  4. Geronimo45

    Geronimo45 Member

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    Funny... I had a similar idea recently. Looking at those weird Brit machine guns - Sten, Bren - with their offset sights. Mount the EOtech on your left and you might not need to do any rotating... keep your chin in place and move your eyes a tad.
     
  5. Bartholomew Roberts

    Bartholomew Roberts Moderator Emeritus

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    Typically in 3-gun they will use a tube where they can mount a rail at the 45 degree location instead of 90 degrees. Mount a Docter Optic or similar sight there or a set of short pistol radius sights. Also because you are closer to the bore, you have less offset during close range blasting.

    You have less rotation to use the CQB sights this way and you also have less weight/bulk up front on the forearm.
     
  6. trstafford

    trstafford Member

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    One of the techniques being taught to our troops is to lay on their side holding the rifle with ejection port down so firing the rifle sideways is not strange to a combatant.
     
  7. 20nickels

    20nickels Member

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    Awhile back I saw a backup sight that mounted at .45 degrees for just that purpose or when the bunny stops on the main one.
     
  8. brentn

    brentn Member

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    Any pictures of this kind of idea? I have never seen or even heard of this kind of setup before, sounds interesting.
    How well does one shoot from a 90 degree angle?
     
  9. browningguy

    browningguy Member

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    Check JP Rifles site, I think they have some pics of his setup, it doesn't matter if the rifle is rotated, as long as the sights are set up correctly.
     
  10. Max Velocity

    Max Velocity Member

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    JP Rifles CTR-02 Video

    Video
     
  11. Onmilo

    Onmilo Member

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    If you mount your primary scope high enough you can use 45 degree offset mount brackets from Yankee Hill Machine and mount your close quarter sight on the left side of the flattop receiver so it clears the scope turrets.
    http://www.yankeehillmachine.com
     
  12. dm1333

    dm1333 Member

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    Using a pistol like that is commonly referred to as "using your ghetto sights!":p No offense intended of course! It may also help to keep an old car door on the range that you can shoot out of! Just to get the context right. And now, having offended everyone I am going to fold my tent and steal away.
     
  13. spooney

    spooney Member

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    I have also seen ACOG's with Doctor Optic sights mounted on top of them. Might be something to think about?
     
  14. ugaarguy

    ugaarguy Moderator Staff Member

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  15. Jeremy2171

    Jeremy2171 Member

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    Why not just stick with irons and learn to shoot? Cheaper and less likley to break and never needs batteries....
     
  16. vnepilot

    vnepilot Member

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    I've seen AR scope mounts that flip to the side 90 degrees to free up the iron sights then rotate back down without losing zero. I dont know who makes them. Im sure someone with have the answere
     
  17. spankaveli

    spankaveli Member

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    How about a scope & one of these
     
  18. Zak Smith

    Zak Smith Moderator Emeritus

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    Here is an Open/Trooper setup I have used in the past:

    A100_0496_img.jpg
    ............... Larger version of above photo.
    A100_0498_img.jpg
    ............... Larger version of above photo.

    The motivation is to gain speed on close-range targets vs. the magnified optic, while still having a longer-range capability. The speed gains at close range are slight, and will depend on you training with whatever system you use. The differentiator in capability is training, not gear. Someone who has trained a lot with his TA11 ACOG will always beat someone who just bolted a red-dot on in hopes that it would make him a better shooter.

    For example, unless you have done a lot of reps, it can be slow to acquire the secondary red dot, because of head position issues.

    Be aware that unless the optic "in use" is above the bore, the downrange trajectory will be way off. For example, if the short-range sight shot at 3'o'clock with a 15-yard zero, at 30 yards, the POI will be approx 2-3" LEFT.
     
  19. Titan6

    Titan6 member

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    Zak- I like it. Where do the empties land? Does your deflector push them forward or do they land on your head?
     
  20. Zak Smith

    Zak Smith Moderator Emeritus

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    Hasn't been a problem.
     
  21. johndoe1027

    johndoe1027 Member

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    I'm thinking about doing this to my Camp 45 (once I get it). A 45 degree angle is much more comfortable than a 90. The KT Sub2000 I fondled last night had a red dot at a 45 degree angle with irons on top. I think I want a 3-9x scope (can still use the irons on a camp) on top with a red dot on the side. Then I have all 3 types of sight systems to play with. The red dot really is much quicker than irons for me with CQB stuff.

    I couldn't figure out what the heck you meant for a second. I was going to say that holding my AR so that the brass ejects down is very uncomfortable. It's a lot easier if I lay on my right side though.... :eek:
     
  22. johndoe1027

    johndoe1027 Member

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    So you mean as long as you turn the gun so that the 2nd sight is at 12:00 then your POI will only be off vertically? I'm not sure I got it.
     
  23. phaed

    phaed Member

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    red dot of your choice with a larue flip-up holding an aimpoint 3x magnifier. got your fast aquisition CQB and good to 400 yards with the magnifier.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2007
  24. Zak Smith

    Zak Smith Moderator Emeritus

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    Yes-- JUST LIKE the POA/POI deviation you see with your normal sight. On the AR, it starts out about 2.6" UNDER POA which means you need to hold over your target out to your primary zero.
    optics_1.png
    (from PRACTICAL LONG-RANGE RIFLE SHOOTING - PART II: OPTICS)

    As long as the scope is above the bore (12'o'clock) and gravity is acting straight down, the only POI error (besides wind) will be vertical.

    But once you put the optic off to the side (3'o'clock in my example), now to meet up with the POA at the zero distance, it has to make up the horizontal distance. Now the sight is inclined side to side relative to the bore, and the bullet will continue LEFT past the primary zero. But in addition, gravity is acting straight down, so things get progressively more screwed up. This is just like shooting a rifle turned sideways (e.g. rollover prone)
     
  25. johndoe1027

    johndoe1027 Member

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    Gotcha, thanks for the good explanation. Thats what I thought you were referring to.
     
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