Pouring BP loads...

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YankeeFlyr

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Ok, muzzle loaders, I've got one for ya...

When you pour real deal black powder down the muzzle of your fire stick, how do you know how much you can put in before you have pressure problems or velocity problems?

Also, historically, how did the dudes back then know how much they could load in a given piece? Certainly a Hawken rifle didn't come with a manual...

Were the guns marked with grain or dram proof loads on the barrel?
 
I am pretty sure that the average gun owner was much more familiar with his weapon then than most are now. I have always been told that you can start with the grain weight that matches the caliber and go from there. I have never felt the need to see how much powder I can jam down the barrel of my muzzle stuffers so I can't help you as to maximum charges. I rarely exceed 1.5 times the caliber for my loads.
 
That's a great question.

I've heard of that rule of matching the load to the caliber number but I've found that I got better results for accuracy when I run about 40 to 50% more. And a buddy hunts with a .54 round ball pushed by 110 grains.

There's nothing on the barrel to indicate what is a suitable load either. So I can see why a newcomer to black powder shooting would be worried.

I can offer that to some extent it's self limiting. If you load a WAY too much it'll be pushed out by the part of the charge which does burn and burn outside the barrel.
 
Yeah, I wondered if there was a rule of thumb relating to caliber and "typical" weight ball for a given powder fineness.

(I don't shoot black powder or own such a piece, I've just always wondered how Jeremiah Johnson knew how much to pour into the gun.)
 
As BC pointed out....if you load too much powder....you will get a fireworks show......the real danger to the unknowing...is leaving an air gap between the charge and the projectile...that will create the famous "KABOOM"...rupturing the barrel just ahead of your face!!

I have been told....and have read it somewhere....that an old style of measure..for a starting charge....was to carefully pour BP over the RB( it compensates for the caliber) you plan on shooting...till the ball was just covered by the pyramid of powder.....the old timers would then cut down a hollowed out piece of horn or bone...till the measured amount would fill flush...

My TC Renegade 54..66 twist...was rated up to 120grs of BP...for round ball.
But to shoot a three round group into a clover leaf....I found 60grs to do the job.
 
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"I have been told....and have read it somewhere....that an old style of measure..for a starting charge....was to carefully pour BP over the RB( it compensates for the caliber) you plan on shooting...till the ball was just covered by the pyramid of powder.....the old timers would then cut down a hollowed out piece of horn or bone...till the measured amount would fill flush..."

The ball is placed in your cupped hand and then the powder is poured on it. (Just clarifying the above statement.)
 
Howdy

With a modern firearm made of modern steel, you are not going to have pressure problems caused by too much powder. An antique with a welded barrel is a different story, but not with modern steel. I can remember very plainly when I bought my first C&B revolver in 1968 the logic was you could not stuff enough powder into the chambers to hurt it.

Of course in the past, this was not true. Many early firearms had iron, not steel barrels and cylinders. It was well known that the Walker Colt with its huge powder capacity and malleable iron cylinder could blow up if too much powder was put in the chambers. That is one reason there were only 1100 of them made. Colt went on to design the Dragoon series, which had slightly smaller cylinders that could not hold as much powder. Even the early Single Action Army revolvers had iron frames and cylinders, and they did occasionally let go with the early 40 grain loads.

Another old trick is to shoot the firearm over freshly fallen snow. If there is unburned powder on the snow, it is a good indication that too much powder was dumped down the bore, and some of it was blasted out of the bore without igniting.

By the way, I agree with the old standard of cupping the ball in the palm of the hand and pouring enough powder over it to just cover the ball.

Jeremiah Johnson may not have known that, but you can bet that Liver Eating Johnson, the real man that Jeremiah Johnson was based on, did.
 
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The old timers had many methods of knowing what powder charge to use.

Different simple formulas based on caliber (gauge) and other things would typically dictate how much powder would be used, with more or less added to the charge for the task at hand. In the case of fancy target rifles, they very often came with a load recommendation that the builder had found to be the most accurate load for that particular rifle. Yes, back then, many makers of high grade target and hunting rifles would painstakingly test fire their completed guns to see what shot best for their customers. It was a different time, to be sure. In military use, paper cartridges with pre-loaded charges of powder had been used since not too long after the creation of black powder weapons in general, making that task very simple even for a fresh recruit.

One thing is for sure, most of the old timers knew exactly what they were doing with their weapons, and the knowledge of ballistics both internal and external was far more developed than what we might give it credit for today. Those men that built and used these weapons were some of the most intelligent, practical, and resourceful people imaginable.

For a great insight on the subject of muzzleloading rifle technology, read The Muzzle-Loading Cap Lock Rifle by Ned Roberts. It's a real gem, full of arcane knowledge and insight from days long gone.

PS: And as to a buyer of a J&S Hawken rifle, you can bet that most of the men who purchased such a fine rifle were already well versed in the use of a muzzle loader. :)
 
For a lot of our pioneer folks, I don't think maximum loads in their rifles would have been much of a factor. Powder was often hard to find in rural areas, and expensive....and as a result it was used as sparingly as possible. If a guy could drop a deer sized critter with 60 grains.....why use twice that amount?
It's doubtful that a lot of folks actually used their rifles for target shooting much anyway and if they went bang and dropped game, they were happy with the results.
 
My dad, born in 1905, was of that mind set. he hunted with his .35 Remington with open sights, didn't bother to target shoot and would drop his deer every year with 1 shot. He did shoot varmints all year with a single shot .22.
 
"By the way, I agree with the old standard of cupping the ball in the palm of the hand and pouring enough powder over it to just cover the ball."

Could be a risky process if you have exceptionally large hands, Lyman's Blackpowder Handbook puts the kibosh on this practice.
 
"Could be a risky process if you have exceptionally large hands"

size of your hand has nothing to do with it...you just pour the bp till the pyramid of powder covers the ball...NOT the palm of your hand...
 
For a lot of our pioneer folks, I don't think maximum loads in their rifles would have been much of a factor. Powder was often hard to find in rural areas, and expensive....and as a result it was used as sparingly as possible. If a guy could drop a deer sized critter with 60 grains.....why use twice that amount?
It's doubtful that a lot of folks actually used their rifles for target shooting much anyway and if they went bang and dropped game, they were happy with the results
Click to expand...

Ive heard similar ideas, but it made me wonder. One wouldn't wander around with an empty gun and load for what you found to shoot (deer, elk, buffalo, Indians, etc), the guns were generally left loaded at all times, unless perhaps in later, more civilized times. Id guess they were mostly used with one prime load, suitable for game or defense at any range it may be appropriate, and such a load would be matched to the sights at a known distance.

"Shooting the mark" was a fairly popular social past time in frontier areas, back into flintlock times.
 
Of course, I am well aware that an air pocket can lead to an explosion when shooting with black powder, but WHY does this occur? Also, perhaps better to think of a cartridge loaded with black powder, but how much of an air pocket would yield an explosion instead of a nicely fired round?
 
Packed tightly, BP tends to burn in a more-or-less controlled column.
But BP granules scattered into a loose air pocket and then ignited tend to flash all at once like coal dust in a mine.

A little bit (as in a few grains behind/to blow out a dry ball) is no big deal.;)
A full-up charge, however, is another thing altogether. :eek: :what:
 
My .50 caliber mountain rifle has a 35" long, 1" across the flats Sharon Barrel with a Bill Large breech plug. I came up with the proper load by sighting in - I started at 60 grains (which was what my T/C Hawken 50 digested well), and shot 3-shot groups, increasing 5 grains each group.

Interestingly, the groups moved around, opened up, tightened up, until I was drilling one hole. Took a lot of the day - I found the best load for THAT rifle to be 110 grains. It would perform the same up through 140, then the group started to fall apart.

I target shoot at 110, and hunt with 140.

Now as to maximum, I do know that 280 grains makes a big bang and kinda surprises you (I was in a long-gong shoot, using 140 when my wife showed up with my 2 year old. I had been traveling, and went straight to the shoot. When the kid fell apart when he saw me, I set my rifle against the fence and went to see him. Once he was consoled, I loaded and shot - totally forgetting I had 140 grains already in there....).

Old Timers DID use measures, since powder was expensive and they wanted to hit what they aimed at. Many, many examples of measures. A palm full of powder might work when arrows were flying at you, but in normal conditions that rifle was loaded with a measure of powder.

Rather than worry over the maximum, I would recommend methodically working up your charge, and then hanging that size measure on your horn. Modern steels will handle far more "bang" than the wooden stock will, but stay away from those levels. Use the measure, not your palm, and you will be both safe and accurate.
 
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