Powder for .260 Rem 143gr ELDX (1k yd deer round?)

[gdcpony]

I am thinking of a reloading change to achieve better long range capabilities hunting wise in my AR10 in .260 Rem. It is a DPMS based build with a 1:8 24" Black Hole Weaponry barrel and JP Enterprises parts elsewhere. Currently the load is 123gr SST over 42.5gr Hybrid 100V (well within book), lit by CCI LR primers and in FC brass. I am .01 OTL. Over the Chrony (and confirmed by another) I am getting 3120fps. This rifle sends about every pill out fast compared to the book. Some say it is the polygonal rifling? Current groups (5shot) are running .4-.6MOA from 100-500 and about 1MOA at 1k yards.

My goal is to kill a deer at 1000yds. That means I need to bring my groups down to .6 MOA at that range and carry more energy in a hunting bullet than I am. I am thinking of going to the 143gr ELDX. If my guestimation is right I will be throwing them out at possibly around 2700fps and carrying 30" more drop and 8" less drift at 1000. And about 2/3 more energy too. But I will have to switch powders as it seems 100V has yet to show anyone good results in that weight class of bullet.

Anyone out there using this pill or something similar? I would like to know what powders you are using. I can work up the loads, but am looking for the best chance at powder. I will also be going to Hornady .243 brass as I just came into a supply of it for free and the FC stuff is on firing 8. Better than going down from .308 brass which is my other option. Oh and I will upgrade to BR primers as I know they can make a difference. So the bullet/powder change should about round me out!

Pic for fun! 814yds, my best with that rifle so far. The glass has since changed.

 

[redbullitt]

H4350 does very well with the 140 class bullets. Try the h100v and see what happens; you never know. BR primers can help, but sometimes not. Try them and see. As to brass, lapua will the best. Prepped hornady is workable as well.

Purely sticking to the objective ballistics for your goal... Repeatability and wind will be your biggest enemies otherwise.

Personally I would strongly favor a heavier caliber for hunting at that range. The 260 will not have the oomph out there I would like to see. Your bullet will likely not have enough speed to do what we want inside animal, though the Berger products will help. You will be WELL under 1000 ft lbs and 1500fps with most 140 class bullets. Not to say it wont work, but it is far from optimal in ANY consideration, aside from the fact that you have the rifle already lol. Paper and varmints are one thing, but but deer sized game is another. You simply do not have enough cartridge to do it properly at 1000 yards imho.

My 260 rem shoots very well with hornady 140 amax and eld. H4350 gets me 2825 from a 26 inch barrel, with SD between 5 and 8. For hunting I use a berger 140. I get good expansion and terminal performance out to there. It shoots very well and I have taken deer out to 600 yards give or take a bit. I consider that to be the max range with that rifle for good bullet performance.

The 260, and even my 260 SLR sure shoot lights out, but I would never choose one for the shot you are describing FWIW.

At 1000 yards you need all the advantage you can get. The 260 with any bullet just isn't it. Just for comparison, my 260 rem with a 140 berger hits with just about 1600 fps and 800ftlbs at 100 yards. My 300 mag with a 215 hybrid at 2930fps carries 1800fps and 1500ftlbs at 1000 yards. My 338 will toss a 300g hybrid carrying 1900fps and over 2400ftlbs at 1000 yards. Much more payload on target than the 260 can muster in any case.

Consider a heavier cartridge! 300 mag properly loaded, 338 lapua, 338 edge, 338 terminator or similar would be more suitable in my mind. More cartridge at this range is better...

Again, take every advantage you can. You owe that animal your best shot, never a marginal one.

 

[Varminterror]

Reliable .6moa at 1,000 with an AR-10, killing a deer with a .260 at 1,000... nope... nope...

H4350 and H1000 are where I live for heavy bullets in the 260/6.5/243/6dasher, but none of them are going to hit hard enough to make me willing to take a 1,000yrd shot on a deer in Ohio with it. I've been hunting out long range for over 20yrs, when I want to kill deer past 600, my cartridge starts at LEAST with 7mm, and ends with "Magnum," pushing at LEAST a 180grn bullet...

Run that 260 into a 10" steel plate at 500yrd then do it again at 1,000yrds and you can see the difference. Things fall off pretty fast for the little tikes...

 

[gdcpony]

H4350 does very well with the 140 class bullets. Try the h100v and see what happens; you never know. BR primers can help, but sometimes not. Try them and see. As to brass, lapua will the best. Prepped hornady is workable as well.

Purely sticking to the objective ballistics for your goal... Repeatability and wind will be your biggest enemies otherwise.

Personally I would strongly favor a heavier caliber for hunting at that range. The 260 will not have the oomph out there I would like to see. Your bullet will likely not have enough speed to do what we want inside animal, though the Berger products will help. You will be WELL under 1000 ft lbs and 1500fps with most 140 class bullets. Not to say it wont work, but it is far from optimal in ANY consideration, aside from the fact that you have the rifle already lol. Paper and varmints are one thing, but but deer sized game is another. You simply do not have enough cartridge to do it properly at 1000 yards imho.

My 260 rem shoots very well with hornady 140 amax and eld. H4350 gets me 2825 from a 26 inch barrel, with SD between 5 and 8. For hunting I use a berger 140. I get good expansion and terminal performance out to there. It shoots very well and I have taken deer out to 600 yards give or take a bit. I consider that to be the max range with that rifle for good bullet performance.

The 260, and even my 260 SLR sure shoot lights out, but I would never choose one for the shot you are describing FWIW.

At 1000 yards you need all the advantage you can get. The 260 with any bullet just isn't it. Just for comparison, my 260 rem with a 140 berger hits with just about 1600 fps and 800ftlbs at 100 yards. My 300 mag with a 215 hybrid at 2930fps carries 1800fps and 1500ftlbs at 1000 yards. My 338 will toss a 300g hybrid carrying 1900fps and over 2400ftlbs at 1000 yards. Much more payload on target than the 260 can muster in any case.

Consider a heavier cartridge! 300 mag properly loaded, 338 lapua, 338 edge, 338 terminator or similar would be more suitable in my mind. More cartridge at this range is better...

Again, take every advantage you can. You owe that animal your best shot, never a marginal one.

I will take most of this advice. I don't think these southern deer need that much though. Be a bit different out west for sure. Here I get the same terminal performance on them that I do on songdogs. However, if I can't up my "milk jug" performance hit wise, it is a moot point. I think even before terminal ballistics is considered, a hit must be assured. That means lots of practice, better reloading, and keeping the skill level up. Somewhere along that I will do some terminal tests (especially if a yote steps out) and make sure i have enough performance.

Might be I have to step up to a magnum round. I usually get my long range shooting done with... odd rounds. My .257 Roberts is about to be rebarreled it the AI (worn out after 8k rounds) and I have taken game with it to 700yds as is. 7x57AI used to be my go to, but try building one of those now-w-days! So I may have to step up. But not until I have to!

 

[Ireload2]

1000 yards are you kidding? The poor dumb deer deserve better. The last long shot I made at a whitetail buck was 360 yards across a wheat field with a 6mm Rem. The bullet was a 100 grn Hornady chronographed at 3003 FPS.
At that distance I knew I would have a lot of drop and there was some breeze.
The buck stood broadside with his head up high testing the air with his nose.
I aimed at the spot where his antler grew out of his skull and fired. The bullet dropped enough to hit him midway between back and belly. The bullet drifted in the wind about 16" hitting him in the liver. He ran into the brush and died about 150 yards from where he was shot. The Hornady bullet did not expand and penciled right through.
I was lucky to get that buck. I had previously shot another buck in that field with a 25-06 with a lot more damage. No wind that day similar distance.
The shot blew the bucks heart open like an artichoke. He still ran 100 yards.

1000 yards? You might as well go for 72 virgins while you are at it.

You should try shooting starlings at 150 yards with a .22 LR. There are plenty of starlings and it would be both challenging and less expensive.

 

[gdcpony]

1000 yards are you kidding? The poor dumb deer deserve better. The last long shot I made at a whitetail buck was 360 yards across a wheat field with a 6mm Rem. The bullet was a 100 grn Hornady chronographed at 3003 FPS.
At that distance I knew I would have a lot of drop and there was some breeze.
The buck stood broadside with his head up high testing the air with his nose.
I aimed at the spot where his antler grew out of his skull and fired. The bullet dropped enough to hit him midway between back and belly. The bullet drifted in the wind about 16" hitting him in the liver. He ran into the brush and died about 150 yards from where he was shot. The Hornady bullet did not expand and penciled right through.
I was lucky to get that buck. I had previously shot another buck in that field with a 25-06 with a lot more damage. No wind that day similar distance.
The shot blew the bucks heart open like an artichoke. He still ran 100 yards.

1000 yards? You might as well go for 72 virgins while you are at it.

You should try shooting starlings at 150 yards with a .22 LR. There are plenty of starlings and it would be both challenging and less expensive.

That seems like a ton of drop for that range. The tracking isn't too unusual for me though. I am a bowhunter and we almost always have to track some.

I think my wife would have more issues with the 72 virgins than the deer hunting.

 

[Stumper]

I believe that the powder for 1000 yard deer shooting is a prohibited substance that you should avoid.

 

[Jack B.]

Hunting any animal at 1000 yds. is unethical IMO. To high of a chance of just wounding if you even hit it. I know you see video's and read about successfully taking an animal at 1000 yds. I think that's just luck. IMO.

 

[Captcurt]

I worked with a kid who had the same desire to shoot a deer 1000 yards. He had a 300WM with 180gr handloads sighted in at 300 yards. I crunched the numbers on bullet drop for his load. I don't remember the exact drop now but it was something like 35 feet, and that isn't counting any wind drift.

My own experience with semi-long range shooting was in Colorado. I had a buck on the other hillside and guessed it 400-450 yards. He was broadside and I had the crosshair about 6" above his withers. Just a I squeezed the trigger he took a step. In the time that it took the bullet to cross that ravine the buck had moved about 2 feet. I took him through the center of the hams. It put him down, but if he had been 100yards farther it would have been a clean miss. 1000yards? No thanks. Not even with my 300WSM.

 

[Nature Boy]

The only thing that sucks worse than tracking a wounded deer all day is tracking one all day and not finding it.

Trying to shoot a deer at extreme distances pretty much ensures an afternoon and evening of sucky-ness.

Try banging an 8" steel plate at 1,000 yards. Just as challenging and more rewarding when you hitting it with regularity

 

[LoonWulf]

Ive gotten the 143 eldxs over 2800 from a 6.5cm with superformance. Accuracy was the same as h4350 in my rifle. Im not sure if a similar load would work in a .260 or the AR-10 platform.

Im not gonna give you static about shooting that far out, im pretty sure you understand the situation and how much can go wrong with a shot that far out. Its not something i would consider, but were i going to do it id consider using something larger as VT suggested.

 

[Varminterror]

I think even before terminal ballistics is considered, a hit must be assured.

What you're describing here is the typical paradigm for most of us long range shooters and hunters. Build the precision skill with a small rifle, make the kills with a big rifle with sufficient "terminal performance". I've used 223, 243win, 7x57, 7-08, 260, etc class rifles for practice ever since I was a kid, only bringing out the large case killers enough to be familiar with the trajectory and wind response. For me, developing the ability to accurately read wind and range is 50% of the battle, the ability to let the rifle deliver the shot is 40%, and knowing how the environmental inputs affect your particular load is 10%. Garbage in, garbage out - if you don't read the wind correctly, you won't connect. Getting your DOPE to line up with your calculator is frustrating, but far easier than either of the other two aspects. The challenge then becomes NOT breaking down on your part of letting the rifle shoot where it should when you up the recoil three fold with a round which can produce a clean kill at range.

Personally, I use the 260 and rounds in its class as a long range COYOTE rifle, and short to mid-range deer rifle (recalling here, 600 is mid range). When I want to take deer at ranges beyond 500-600, as I said above, 180grn plus, 7mm plus, and something "Magnum."

The biggest mistake you can make right now, in preparation for a long range hunting shot next season is to shoot only at known, regular intervals. Get your regular interval DOPE put together, then start working on filling in gaps. What happens if your deer is at 1,003 yards instead of 1,000? What if he's at 1128yrds?

 

[Jack B.]

With out good spotting glass I couldn't tell the difference between a dog and a deer at 1000 yds.

 

[jmr40]

I'd try some RL16, I've been reading great things about it. I've been loading 143 ELD-X's with H4350 and Ramshot Hunter in my Ruger Predator. Accuracy is near .5 MOA, but velocity is closer to 2600 fps. You're supposed to be able to get 2800+ fps with RL16. I've been wanting to try it, but have not located any yet.

I can't do it, but don't have a problem with someone else doing it if they put in the time and have the gear to feel confident in their ability. There are lots of people who have no business taking 100 yard shots, but there are a lot of others who can make 500 look easy.

And he doesn't need a bigger gun. At 1000 yards that bullet, if he can achieve 2800 fps, will still impact with about the same energy as a 30-30 at 200 yards. The difference a 300 magnum would make just isn't that great. Less than 200 ft lbs energy.

At those ranges bullet drop isn't a concern. It'll hit about 25' low with a 100 yard zero. With the right gear that can be accounted for. It is the wind that makes things tricky.

 

[gdcpony]

What you're describing here is the typical paradigm for most of us long range shooters and hunters. Build the precision skill with a small rifle, make the kills with a big rifle with sufficient "terminal performance". I've used 223, 243win, 7x57, 7-08, 260, etc class rifles for practice ever since I was a kid, only bringing out the large case killers enough to be familiar with the trajectory and wind response. For me, developing the ability to accurately read wind and range is 50% of the battle, the ability to let the rifle deliver the shot is 40%, and knowing how the environmental inputs affect your particular load is 10%. Garbage in, garbage out - if you don't read the wind correctly, you won't connect. Getting your DOPE to line up with your calculator is frustrating, but far easier than either of the other two aspects. The challenge then becomes NOT breaking down on your part of letting the rifle shoot where it should when you up the recoil three fold with a round which can produce a clean kill at range.

Personally, I use the 260 and rounds in its class as a long range COYOTE rifle, and short to mid-range deer rifle (recalling here, 600 is mid range). When I want to take deer at ranges beyond 500-600, as I said above, 180grn plus, 7mm plus, and something "Magnum."

The biggest mistake you can make right now, in preparation for a long range hunting shot next season is to shoot only at known, regular intervals. Get your regular interval DOPE put together, then start working on filling in gaps. What happens if your deer is at 1,003 yards instead of 1,000? What if he's at 1128yrds?

Varminterror (love the name!), you make valid points. I am not the young guy who buys a 6.5 and thinks he is the ultra sniper so I will listen. Not saying I will take it all, but anyone who ignores sound advice is an idiot. Most of what you have said I already planned on. I love the process of getting those notes, the endless hours of prepping and testing the loads. going out to the field and having a kid (blessed with 3 range runners who also love shooting) run targets out and tell you how far (we practice this with all weapons from bow to rifle in the house). Trying to figure out why your "perfect" dial in didn't connect.

 

[gdcpony]

With out good spotting glass I couldn't tell the difference between a dog and a deer at 1000 yds.

Funny story. Until I put a scope on it, I though this was a 'yote at 205yds! It was last light. I took the shot, but got made fun of for it so you all can laugh too. Yes, that is a shotgun. And, yes, that is an acceptable deer for my goal. I am no trophy hunter. I can't eat horns.

 

[Varminterror]

Energy doesn't do the killing at long range - we're too far out for velocities to be high enough. Momentum is what carries the bullet through game - a 140grn leaving at 2650 reaches 1000yrds right about 1100fps, 140/7000*1100 = 22. A 200grn 300win mag, leaving at a moderate 2850 reaches 1000yrds just over 1500fps, 200/7000*1500 = 42.8. I think you're kinda off on Energy calc anyway - 140*1100^2/450380 = 376ft.lbs. 200*1500^2/450380 = 999ft.lbs. So a pretty substantial gap. Even bumping up to 2800fps leaves the 140 ELD-x at 1240fps at 1000yrds, only good for 480ft.lbs. and momentum of 24.8 - LONG ways below the 300wm.

Bullet selection is a big part of the game as well. Finding something which will expand reliably AND penetrate at 1100-1200fps doesn't offer a very long list. Certainly not many you'd want to use shorter than 200yrds at the other end either.

I'll also comment that the ballistic solution DOES matter. It's easy to say it's just a matter of knowing your range and plugging it in - on a moving animal, and trusting your calculator to be PERFECT, as well as your rangefinder reading. Recall, you're dropping an inch per yard at 1,000 with the 260, so a missed reading or a low end LRF can put your calculator way off target. Many models are +/- 1yrd at 1,000yrds, if you even get a good reading on your desired target, and if the animal doesn't move. High light vs. low light sensitivity, bang - big mis-read in your LRF, and the wrong dial for delivery... if there wasn't a gap between the performance of short action small bores and large case mid-bore rifles, there wouldn't be large case mid-bore rifles...

 

[gdcpony]

I get something different. Different calculator maybe? I ran it again on a different one and got the same:
2800fps muzzle, BC .625 (G1), 10mph wind at 90*, 250yd zero
Range Vel Energy Drop Drift
100 2654 2237 +2.6 .5
500 2115 1421 -34.7 14.3
1000 1545 757 -268.7 66.4 mom- 34.4

Same for the 220gr ELDX .308 (to exceed the BC of the 147gr pill) launched by a pretty stout loading in 300WM according to my manual.
2700fps muzzle, BC .650 (G1), 10mph wind at 90*, 250yd zero
Range Vel Energy Drop Drift
100 2563 3208 +2.9 .6
500 2054 2061 -37.2 14.4
1000 1515 1121 -285.5 66.6 mom- 47.6

For deer in the 80-100lb weight class do I really need 1000ft#? If I was going after a 200# bruiser buck, sure. But I am hunting in NC not OH (rifles aren't legal there anyways).

Your thoughts on ranging, the variables, and such are well founded though. That is the part that shows we are both concerned about at least getting a bullet on target as needed. Like we both agree on, a miss/bad hit makes the rest of the discussion moot.

 

[LoonWulf]

Lets look at a couple loads that ive used.
143eldx 6.5 at 2800
And 162 Amax .284 at 3050 (I think the eldx version offers a slightly higher bc if you prefer)

Bcs for both bullets are listed at .625 i believe

Both are hot loads, the 162s coming from my 7mag (my stw drove the same bullet to 3200 easily, and with little extra recoil).

250fps with a bullet of the same BC (as listed), and heavier weight is substantial.
Step all the way up to a full length magnum and your talking 400fps more velocity.

I quit messing with the .30 cal mags as they are just more recoil than i want, but i had little issue driving a 208Amax over 2900 from a 24" barrel.

Now does that mean it will kill any better at 1k.... honestly no idea, longest shot ive taken on game was less than 1/2 that.

 

[Varminterror]

I must have fat fingered my BC earlier. Your numbers are close to my re-run, but note, the momentum is almost 40% greater and energy is almost 50% greater momentum. "Close" isn't a word which describes the gap between 260 and 300wm...

Energy, as I said above, doesn't do the killing. It's essentially worthless as a measure for killing game at long range. The velocity isn't high enough to create the big temporary cavity impacts like we see from high velocity rounds at short range. Long range killing is much more like hunting with a handgun, as the velocities involved aren't so different. Bullets don't knock deer off of their feet at 1,000, they deflect much more easily, they fail to penetrate, or they fail to expand and create trauma to provide the bloodletting you need. You're begging that bullet to penetrate clear through at 1,000yrds, and praying for enough trauma from responsible expansion along the way. Consider why the Accubonds are so popular and so successful for long range killing - they're very fragile construction bullets, so they open even when moving slow, but unlike non-bonded tipped bullets (aka ELD-X), they don't shed weight, so they'll use what they have to penetrate through. Similarly, the mono-metal bullets like the TTSX flat will NOT expand at long range, they drill through, which seems great for blood letting, but they don't do any trauma along the way, so game is gonna travel...

Advice worth what you paid I guess, I shot poor bullet choices at long range game years ago, and learned my lesson. I rotted my guts and wore out my legs tracking and losing game, took the criticism from others for unethical long range shots (take a spotter, let them confirm your impacts and run your calculator, and also back up your placement)... I've taken dozens of coyotes past 600yrds with middle ground cartridges like the 260, a couple antelope, and one deer - one was enough to give up on cartridges so weak for the task. I've taken a dozen deer past 600, countless coyotes, and a handful of antelope. Even on antelope, anything I do over 600 is a 7rem mag and larger. Inside 600, the velocity is high enough and killing performance good enough to be happy. 600 seems long, and 1000 doesn't seem THAT much longer. But it is. I've not seen anything of the ELD-X which makes me think it's anything special for expansion or retention, and I've shot far too much with 260 and it's class to pretend I think it's a high percentage option.

Odds are against you - you have a marginal cartridge in a marginal platform with an extremely demanding application. Give yourself the benefit of any advatage you can get. At the very least, go take deer at 600, 700, and 800/900 incrementally to see how your bullets perform before making a leap to 1,000. My expectation is you'll give up on the platform and the cartridge at about 700 - that's where they gave up for me, and where they gave up for the guys from whom I learned long range hunting.

 

[taliv]

although the question is primarily powder related (i'd lean toward reloader17)
i'll repost something i wrote from march '15

the shoot for the green PRS match in Oklahoma this past weekend had an interesting stage. Four plywood deer silhouettes were positioned at different distances with an 8" circle cut out and a steel gong hung in it, representing the vital zone. Shooters had to start with the closest deer and get two hits on it before progressing to the next farthest one. Max round count was 10 rounds.

Of course, it's not a laboratory "scientific" test, but it's certainly interesting data. imho It's quite a bit easier than an actual hunt because the deer didn't move. The ranges were known. It was shot from a very stable prone position with no grass or other interference. The deer were perfectly broadside. AND you had several dozen very good shooters sharing wind calls with each other and adjusting their plans based on watching the impacts as others shot the course.

Over the day, most shooters were holding between 5-10mph wind on this stage, which is pretty dang calm for western oklahoma

The results? out of 87 shooters

17% couldn't even get 2 hits on an 8" vitals area at 425 yards with 10 tries
32% got 2 hits at 425 yards, but couldn't get 2 hits at 574 yards
44% got 2 hits at 425 and 574, but couldn't get 2 hits at 754 yards
7% got 2 hits at 425, 574 and 754, but weren't able to get 2 hits at 942 yards
0% got 2 hits on all 4 deer

Put another way,
83% hit the 425 yard deer (even though some may have taken all 10 rounds to get their 2 hits)
51% hit the 574 yard deer
7% hit the 754 yard deer
nobody hit all 4

Equally interesting, only ONE shooter in that 7% was in the top 15. i.e. the match winner only hit 2 deer. Of the 14 guys behind him, only one got 3 deer. So it isn't really the case that we should be confident that these are high percentage targets for the "best shooters"

Also, I know several shooters did take a shot at nearby rocks to get a wind call before engaging the deer targets, since you couldn't see misses on the plywood at that distance. So that strategy is factored into the results.

overall, i shot poorly, but i did get 2 hits on 3 deer but missed the 942 yard deer.

something to think about

 

[gdcpony]

Odds are against you - you have a marginal cartridge in a marginal platform with an extremely demanding application. Give yourself the benefit of any advatage you can get. At the very least, go take deer at 600, 700, and 800/900 incrementally to see how your bullets perform before making a leap to 1,000. My expectation is you'll give up on the platform and the cartridge at about 700 - that's where they gave up for me, and where they gave up for the guys from whom I learned long range hunting.

The first in bold, I will take some slight offense to as I built the rifle. Not just assembled, but hand lapped the bolt lugs to contact just right, squared the receiver and bolt to the barrel, actually made the trigger mods myself, and a few other little things that, to me, make the difference between assembly and building. With the time and tests and money I put into making a DI gas gun to run right with a bolt gun, I think the platform is fine. The cartridge...

The second bold piece though is nothing short of good advice. Trust me I will do that. If I fail it will probably be during that exact phase when I see say a 700yd deer without the damage I like. Might even stop when I hit a 'yote out that far and it runs more than I like. I won't got straight from practice to hunting at 1k yards. I will step it out in pieces. Maybe you'll see another post about 7mm mag loads?

I know you soon will see me asking for other loading advice anyways as I am starting 2 new calibers for a different type of deer hunting! I just picked these bad boys up! Not exactly long range rifles huh?

 

[Varminterror]

The first in bold, I will take some slight offense to as I built the rifle. Not just assembled, but hand lapped the bolt lugs to contact just right, squared the receiver and bolt to the barrel, actually made the trigger mods myself, and a few other little things that, to me, make the difference between assembly and building. With the time and tests and money I put into making a DI gas gun to run right with a bolt gun, I think the platform is fine.

Feel free to take offense, it wasn't intended, but I'm not going to retract any statement. The "accurizing" you describe to your AR, and then some, was how I paid my bills for several years. After building over 200 AR's myself in the last couple decades, and rebuilding twice as many more, as well as competing in various walks of precision shooting, the AR just doesn't hold up to bolt guns. That's not my opinion, that's reality. I build a couple dozen sub-moa AR's every year still, even after closing my shop, getting a 1/2"-3/4" at 100yrd AR isn't a challenge. But the best precision AR builders in the world don't come close to the precision available in bolt guns.

It has absolutely nothing to do with the loving care you or I or any builder puts into an AR, it's a design issue.

 

[redbullitt]

Another interesting point the consider. We all posted up some ballpark calculator numbers. We all have different numbers lol. Numbers are different enough to seriously complicate a .5 MOA shot at 500 yards, let alone 1k. Using a typical calulator, like JBM or AB there are MANY parameters that have to be spot on to get you on paper at long distance. Scope height over bore is notable, ZERO RANGE can be a big issue. If your zero is off by .3 inches at 100 yards you can really notice this way out there in your data. Weather conditions change constantly and can really show up at beyond 1k. Heck, many times the given BC for a bullet is incorrect from the manufacturer... that gives you a miss or worse a wounded animal at normal ranges, let alone at extended ranges. No good.

The point I am trying to make here is that the calculators help you, BUT you generally have to tweak things a bit to get everything to line up with your POI. Once you combine that with your ACTUAL field dope you can finally be getting somewhere repeatably. Go shoot A LOT and get things sorted out. The bullet wont lie, but the calculators sometimes do. Once you do that you can start fighting the weather : ).

As I stated earlier, I will stick to the pure hardware aspect of this. Shoot game at any distance you can do it reliably. Heck, check out Broz's posts on Rokslide and longrangehunting. He is an absolute beast and can teach you a lot if you take the time. I shoot a few deer ever year out to around 600-650 yards, and I would go further if my land allowed and felt comfortable. This is done with a variety of rifles. 308, 260, 300 mag, and 338 Edge. I have not lost one in 15 years of hunting because I ONLY take the shot I know I can make. I have passed up MANY good deer that I simply did not feel 100 percent comfortable with the conditions of the shot. Simple as that. Hunt long if you want, but do it right for the sake of the animal.

Thoughts on your platform... If you are shooting consistently under .75 moa with a gasser you are doing very well! Their 2 part recoil makes them tough, for me at least, to really shoot well. I have gassers that shoot as well as most bolt rifles, but they can be difficult to get there compared to a bolt action.

More thoughts on the caliber... you do not NEED 1000ftlbs to take a deer. Not even close, but more bullet and more cartridge does indeed tend to work better at extended ranges, provided you can shoot them of course. Mine are suppressed/braked etc, so they are plenty friendly. I would grab the 338 for a 300 yard shot if the conditions warranted it. I don't need it, but man it sure helps. I have never wished for less gun on a long shot or in poor conditions fwiw.

Continue to research bullets as you are. I find the AMAX does well from my rifles on deer at extended ranges (100 to 650 yards, 178amax 308@2650 muzzle,140 amax 260@2800 muzzle), but the Berger offerings tend to do better in the animal and fly a bit better in the wind from what I have experienced, though I have only been shooting them heavily for few years now. The 215 hybrid in 300mag is amazing, and their 140 6.5 offerings are worth you checking out for sure. I will clarify that these bullets favor extended range shots, and that I prefer a good old soft point for anything inside 100 yards for those rifles.

Congrats on the lever guns! What caliber? I have a twin to that in 4570, and it REALLY smacks the deer lol.Really fun to shoot too. Tough to argue with a 405 WFN smacking the berm downrange. Not a fan of the 325 FTX to save you some fuss maybe... it seems to like a little more velocity than my shoulder does, but then again ymmv there.

 

[mavracer]

My biggest problem with the really long range hunting is that at 1k even with good bullets your talking 1.25 to 1.5 seconds time of flight on a critter capable of moving 40 feet per second.
You can do everything right make the perfect shot and oops the deer just decided to take a step forward.