Powder for 45-70 used for CAS side matches only

[JimGnitecki]

I just bought a Pedersoli Sharps Hunter model rifle for use in Cowboy Action Shooting ("CAS") side matches, at LONG ranges (for an Old West replica rifle with open sights!) using 405g, 500g, or 500+g bullets withOUT gas checks, at muzzle velocities of 1100 to 1400 fps. I am looking for good load data for this usage (only).

I MIGHT have to restrict myself to 405g bullets, because 500g and above bullets are not very available to me herein Canada, and when available are very costly compared to the 405g bullets. The exception appears to be 500g PLATED bullets, but it is unclear to me whether or not a PLATED bullet is legal for CAS side match use. Jacketed bullets are NOT legal, and coated bullets ARE legal, so the rules seem unclear on "plated" since plated is not even addrssed as either legal or not legal. Anyone here know for sure?

Accurate 5744 powder appears to me to be reliably available to me here in Canada, but I am hesitant to use a fast burning powder for safety reasons, even though the 5744 is recommended by Hodgdons for CAS usage and is very light weight in density (i.e. occupies more volume space than heavier density powders) and so fills at least a reasonable portion of the case volume compared to some other powders. I'd personally feel more comfortable with a slower burning powder, IF there is one that will work with the 45-70 cartridge, and if I find it to be reasonably available to me. Any experienced suggestions?

Jim G

 

[AJC1]

Imr 4198, reloader 7 accurate 5744, h4198 and ramshot x-terrminator all work well.

 

[JimGnitecki]

Imr 4198, reloader 7 accurate 5744, h4198 and ramshot x-terrminator all work well.

Ah, thanks! Interesting. All those powwders, except Ramshot X-Terminator, are about the same burn speed. X-Terminator iS a bit slower, but i wonder about its bulk density versus 5744. I'll want to fill as much as possible of the cavernous 45-70 case, even though one of these powders will be "lightweight" enough to get anywhere close to filling an Old West cartridge without becoming dangerous. I'll take a look at the relative bulk densities.

Jim G

 

[AJC1]

X-term is a ball so it will likely have the worst case fill. I always use the Lee vmd chart for bulk when dreaming up a new load. First choice for your task is tin star (discontinued) and trail boss (adi not producing this year) my list is built on a choice from each company so you have choices. 3031 would be great as a hunting load and may make a good load at start.

 

[mkl]

Can you get Unique in Canada?

My "go to" powder in a mild to medium load of a 45-70.

Unless you are hunting something bigger than buffalo, it will work on any North American game.

 

[JimGnitecki]

X-term is a ball so it will likely have the worst case fill. I always use the Lee vmd chart for bulk when dreaming up a new load. First choice for your task is tin star (discontinued) and trail boss (adi not producing this year) my list is built on a choice from each company so you have choices. 3031 would be great as a hunting load and may make a good load at start.

3031 is a possibility then, but my primary concern would be using any pwoder at its starting load, as that is usually close to being unstable and might produce some very bad SDs and ESs in this long range application. But I'll look into 3031.

Jim G

 

[JimGnitecki]

Can you get Unique in Canada?

My "go to" powder in a mild to medium load of a 45-70.

Unless you are hunting something bigger than buffalo, it will work on any North American game.

I don't hunt, and the ONLY application is CAS side matches and long range in general (when I don't want to shoot my 6.5 Creedmoor!). So, a mild to medium load for 45-70 might work. But, although we could normally get Unique, but I have not seen it lately anywhere here.

Jim G

 

[AJC1]

3031 is a possibility then, but my primary concern would be using any pwoder at its starting load, as that is usually close to being unstable and might produce some very bad SDs and ESs in this long range application. But I'll look into 3031.

Jim G

I'd be running the numbers for case fill on 4198 vs 3031. I mostly shoot/have shot trail boss in Silhouette. Because that's no longer an option I gave you my next plan....

 

[EricBu]

I just bought a Pedersoli Sharps Hunter model rifle for use in Cowboy Action Shooting ("CAS") side matches, at LONG ranges (for an Old West replica rifle with open sights!) using 405g, 500g, or 500+g bullets withOUT gas checks, at muzzle velocities of 1100 to 1400 fps. I am looking for good load data for this usage (only).

I MIGHT have to restrict myself to 405g bullets, because 500g and above bullets are not very available to me herein Canada, and when available are very costly compared to the 405g bullets. The exception appears to be 500g PLATED bullets, but it is unclear to me whether or not a PLATED bullet is legal for CAS side match use. Jacketed bullets are NOT legal, and coated bullets ARE legal, so the rules seem unclear on "plated" since plated is not even addrssed as either legal or not legal. Anyone here know for sure?

Accurate 5744 powder appears to me to be reliably available to me here in Canada, but I am hesitant to use a fast burning powder for safety reasons, even though the 5744 is recommended by Hodgdons for CAS usage and is very light weight in density (i.e. occupies more volume space than heavier density powders) and so fills at least a reasonable portion of the case volume compared to some other powders. I'd personally feel more comfortable with a slower burning powder, IF there is one that will work with the 45-70 cartridge, and if I find it to be reasonably available to me. Any experienced suggestions?

Jim G

This is a perfect application for Buffalo Rifle (very close to AA5744). I use 25.5 grains under a 405 Hi-Tek coated cast bullet. Out of a Cavalry Carbine replica Pedersoli Trapdoor 45-70 I'm at 1200 fps. Your sharps has a lot of room to drop that because of the much longer barrel, maybe start at around 24.5 grains with a 405, I'd guess would get you near the same velocity on your Sharps. This is a < 18,000 psi load.

For CAS, it's my understanding that plated is not legal for most classes in CAS, but Hi-Tek coating is legal.

 

[Bearded Phil]

*Warning*- I4198 charge levels extrapolated from data in Lyman Cast #3. N120 load is NOT PUBLISHED. Use at your own risk.

This is a perfect application for Buffalo Rifle (very close to AA5744). I use 25.5 grains under a 405 Hi-Tek coated cast bullet. Out of a Cavalry Carbine replica Pedersoli Trapdoor 45-70 I'm at 1200 fps. Your sharps has a lot of room to drop that because of the much longer barrel, maybe start at around 24.5 grains with a 405

It's funny how there are some powders that just group around the same burn rate & application.

I'm using I4198 between 24.5gr & 25.4gr with a 405gr cast and 396gr cast with similar results in my Henry lever. With I4198 and 18.5" barrel FPS is around 1050-1080FPS between those two grain charges.

With N120 in the same range, same bullets, CCI LR etc. it's closer to 1100-1170FPS, though I need to get some of those over the new chronograph. I don't entirely trust the old Caldwell, hence my reason for getting a DLX.

 

[AJC1]

*Warning*- I4198 charge levels extrapolated from data in Lyman Cast #3. N120 load is NOT PUBLISHED. Use at your own risk.



It's funny how there are some powders that just group around the same burn rate & application.

I'm using I4198 between 24.5gr & 25.4gr with a 405gr cast and 396gr cast with similar results in my Henry lever. With I4198 and 18.5" barrel FPS is around 1050-1080FPS between those two grain charges.

With N120 in the same range, same bullets, CCI LR etc. it's closer to 1100-1170FPS, though I need to get some of those over the new chronograph. I don't entirely trust the old Caldwell, hence my reason for getting a DLX.

I somehow equate n120 with 4227 and n130 with 4198 and n135 with 4895. The n135 compared very favorably this weekend 44.4 vs 44.8 for good accuracy.

 

[JimGnitecki]

I looked up thre bulk density of all those powders mentioned above in AJC1's post (post no. 2 above) except the IMR4198 which I could not find anywhere. Plus i looked up IMR 3031 too. They are all very close in bulk density (i.e. weight of powder per cubic unit). X-Terminator is not quite as low in weight per cubic inch (as AJC1 suspected), coming in about 10% heavier, so at least in theory, worse in terms of actually taking up case volume. So, bulk density of any of these powders is not a differentiator.

 

[JimGnitecki]

It seems like ANY of the recommended smokeless loads for mild (Cowboy Action use, so 1100 to1400 fps) 45-70 do not fill the case very well and are relatively fast burning powders. Am I correct in thinking that?

Jim G

 

[Bearded Phil]

I somehow equate n120 with 4227 and n130 with 4198 and n135 with 4895. The n135 compared very favorably this weekend 44.4 vs 44.8 for good accuracy.

Using Vihtavuori's own burn rate chart as a reference I looked to N120 as an alternate to I4198 when the prices on IMR powders skyrocketed. With some judicious studying, powder modeling and a little prayer I found N120 to be a slightly slower powder compared to I4198, due to faster velocities with the same powder charges.

It seems like ANY of the recommended smokeless loads for mild (Cowboy Action use, so 1100 to1400 fps) 45-70 do not fill the case very well and are relatively fast burning powders. Am I correct in thinking that?

The fast rifle powders are very common for use in mild loads of 45-70 with cast projectiles certainly. Case fill doesn't always need to be high to produce good results.

My chrono data from using I4198 when my old chronograph would do it's job right were single digits.

 

[AJC1]

Using Vihtavuori's own burn rate chart as a reference I looked to N120 as an alternate to I4198 when the prices on IMR powders skyrocketed. With some judicious studying, powder modeling and a little prayer I found N120 to be a slightly slower powder compared to I4198, due to faster velocities with the same powder charges.




The fast rifle powders are very common for use in mild loads of 45-70 with cast projectiles certainly. Case fill doesn't always need to be high to produce good results.

My chrono data from using I4198 when my old chronograph would do it's job right were single digits.

I have zero idea of the volume of imr vs vv powders never seen them listed together.

 

[ms6852]

I use nothing but 5744 on my Pedersoli Sharps. I like keeping the loads to between 1100 and 1200 fps for no reason other than my shoulder likes it and I don't need to use gas checks at those velocities using 405 grainers.

 

[Targa]

I like 405 grain bullets with 30.5 grains of IMR4198. Chronographs at 1330 fps through my carbine Trapdoor.

 

[Bearded Phil]

I have zero idea of the volume of imr vs vv powders never seen them listed together.

Case fill with N120 is maybe 2-2.5% less compared to I4198 in equivalent grain weight according to GRT. N120 is a finer grain extruded powder for sure. Don't quote me on those figures I don't have my files in front of me just going off of memory.

 

[Jim Watson]

My .38-55 did best with 5744... as smokeless goes.
Swiss No 4, 1 1/2 Fg is better, I have used nothing else in .40-65.

 

[JimGnitecki]

My .38-55 did best with 5744... as smokeless goes.
Swiss No 4, 1 1/2 Fg is better, I have used nothing else in .40-65.

Yes for smokeless powder, the 5744 keeps coming up so must be reasonably good.

Jim G

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Yes for smokeless powder, the 5744 keeps coming up so must be reasonably good.

Jim G

Yes Sir Jim, AA5744 is probably your best choice for your application.

I used to use nothing other than 4198 for cast 45-70 ammo. With jacketed bullets (which were rare) I used 3031. Once I gave AA5744 I never used any other powder in the 45-70. Like you noticed it is very fluffy so the case fill is good. The powder lights easily and burns completely too. Pressures are fairly low compared to some other powders generating similar velocities. Accuracy has always been good in both my rifles. What's not to like? Add the fact you said it's available near you, I would think it's worth buying a pound and giving it a try.

The Trapdoor load data runs from 24gr to 29gr AA5744 with a 405gr cast bullet. My Trapdoor rifle shoots accurately with the 29.0gr load but of course you should try the entire range to see which is most accurate in your Sharps and which charge generates the velocity you are looking for.

Good luck on the CAS side matches!

 

[JimGnitecki]

Yes Sir Jim, AA5744 is probably your best choice for your application.

I used to use nothing other than 4198 for cast 45-70 ammo. With jacketed bullets (which were rare) I used 3031. Once I gave AA5744 I never used any other powder in the 45-70. Like you noticed it is very fluffy so the case fill is good. The powder lights easily and burns completely too. Pressures are fairly low compared to some other powders generating similar velocities. Accuracy has always been good in both my rifles. What's not to like? Add the fact you said it's available near you, I would think it's worth buying a pound and giving it a try.

The Trapdoor load data runs from 24gr to 29gr AA5744 with a 405gr cast bullet. My Trapdoor rifle shoots accurately with the 29.0gr load but of course you should try the entire range to see which is most accurate in your Sharps and which charge generates the velocity you are looking for.

Good luck on the CAS side matches!

Thanks for your posting! Yes, I have found and ordered a pound each of both Accurate 5744 and IMR 4198, and 2 different 405g bullets for ladder testing. I also lucked out on primers: one of the online Canadian suppliers I buy from had some Federal LR primers available only to their regular customers, and I was able to buy 500!

The big issue now is 45-70 BRASS. None of the online Canadian suppliers (I live in Canada) have any to sell. I am going to have to do some digging to find shops who do not pop up on Google but have 45-70 brass in their store. I need at least 50 45-70 cases, but would love to be able to buy 150 or 200 if available at a non-ridiculous price.

i also need to find an MVA, Lee Shaver, or other high quality rear tang sight and front tunnel set, new or used, at a price I can afford, as the OEM barrel mounted sight set is of course not suitable for the 500 to 600 yard ranges I'd like to shoot.

I am also now going to research die sets. I already ordered a Lee Factory Crimp 45-70 die, but need to figure out which 3-die (sizing, expanding, and bullet seating) set is the one to get. Anyone got any recommendations on preferred sets and why?

Jim G

 

[Jim Watson]

When I was active in BPCR, I used Baldwin Soule tang and spirit level globe sights. My usual spotter preferred MVA. I saw a number of Kelleys on the line, recognizable by their brass fittings.

I started out with a Shaver Economy sight. It looked like a rather cheap staff on a pretty good Soule windage drum. My spotter said "You stayed with that one about a year too long." The high end Shaver is comparable to the other $400 sights.

Pedersoli has their own line of sights, over a wide range of types and features. I don't know the quality. I am sure their $119 sight will aim the gun but it gives up a lot in ease of adjustment.

 

[JimGnitecki]

When I was active in BPCR, I used Baldwin Soule tang and spirit level globe sights. My usual spotter preferred MVA. I saw a number of Kelleys on the line, recognizable by their brass fittings.

I started out with a Shaver Economy sight. It looked like a rather cheap staff on a pretty good Soule windage drum. My spotter said "You stayed with that one about a year too long." The high end Shaver is comparable to the other $400 sights.

Pedersoli has their own line of sights, over a wide range of types and features. I don't know the quality. I am sure their $119 sight will aim the gun but it gives up a lot in ease of adjustment.

Thank-you, Jim! I did not know about the Baldwin Soule and Kelley sights. And yes, the Pedersoli sight offerings are not well regarded compared to the others mentioned. We pay notably more for all the sight offerings here in Canada because our Canadian dollar is weak versus the U.S. dollar.

Jim G

 

[lightman]

I use 3031 and 4895 in my 45-70 with 405 grain cast bullets.