Powder ID?

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I agree, I wouldn't just load up 89 grains and done. But OTOH, my lawn doesn't need $175.00 worth of overpriced fertilizer, neither.

There are lots of folk had bad accidents. Loaded up 50 BMG but forgot to change the powder. So oops, that's what 200 grains of Bullseye does to a 50BMG, etc.

But starting with an unverified powder, and treating it as such, you're way better off than accidentally switching powders. You're probably not dumb enough to take the unknown powder, put 200 grains into a 50 BMG case, and pull the trigger! That would be making the worst assumption - that it's slowest of slow rifle powders. But then, I don't know you.

The only assumption you will have to make is that it is, indeed, commercial grade smokeless powder, at all. And that it has not gone bad. Since the jug has some backstory, that's not a big leap, at all. In fact's it's pretty obvious it's VV powder out of a sealed 8 lb commercial keg. And it's most likely a big magnum rifle powder, but you needn't even necessarily know that.

You need the right equipment, mindset, half a brain, and time. You might spend some time, initially, pounding out cast bullets that stuck in the bore, but it could be done, safely.

Just as an example. I could put 8-9 grains of any commercial grade smokeless powder in my 308 behind a 150 gr cast bullet and pull the trigger, with the worst fear being a squib. That first shot would tell you if it's a pistol powder or a rifle powder. If it's a medium to slow rifle powder you will be needing the cleaning rod and mallet.

And just because most people in their right mind wouldn't feel like they have the time or patience or knowledge to attempt it, doesn't mean there isn't someone else out there that would. I'm sure there are plenty of folks would trade you 50 lbs of lawn fertilizer for that jug. :)
 
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Yeah, Otto, seriously. If the powder is necessarily one of three (I'm not saying I know that to be true, but if he does) and there is a charge weight that is safe for all three, then he's using published data known to be within safe range. Obviously, if the powder from a SEALED container might be other than one of those three then it's not worth the risk, but it's not like it might be something that someone poured into the jug from some other container. So IF it's narrowed down to only 2 or 3 possible powders and those have load ranges that overlap, you don't know which powder it is but you know it is one of 2 or 3 safe powders that you are loading in a safe range. Best be dang sure of the range of possibilities. But if it's Coke or Pepsi, and you know that, you don't have to worry about it being root beer, do you...
 
Whether or not he can identify the contain as supposed having contained a particular powder, or even the remaining partial information such as lot#, it still seems odd that the label had apparently been deliberately removed. I say this because my Son and I use an RL19 jug that we tore the label off of to use as a scrap powder container, so it sounds all too familiar in this respect, and I've seen similar practices before.

I'm sorry, but he didn't personally tear the label off, he got the powder from an old fellow who doesn't recall anything about it, and rule of thumb in this hobby is, as indicated in my Speer #10, never use powder of questionable / unknown origin or type, and never store powder in anything other than the original container.

I just feel in this hobby and due to the pressures involved, it just isn't worth the risk.

GS
 
Yep. I do that all the time. I remove the label when I put something else in there. I put a new label on it, though.

Here, he broke the seal. He can also weigh the jug to see if it contains 8 lbs, like it's supposed to. And if it were a mix of powder, that's something that can usually be detected with a physical inspection.

Lawn fertilizer is cheap. If you can't ID it, just hold onto it. Someone will come along and take it off you hands.
 
Now that's a sensible thought GLOOB, weigh the contents, and inspect it to see if it looks consistently the same, and if everything checks out, it's far more likely to be one of three powders.
But OTOH, what if?

GS
 
This thread gets more interesting every time I sit down at the computer. I cant wait to hear what happens. (hopefully not on the news)
 
Now that's a sensible thought GLOOB, weigh the contents, and inspect it to see if it looks consistently the same, and if everything checks out, it's far more likely to be one of three powders.
But OTOH, what if?

GS
gamestalker, the OP said the Vihta Vouri safety seal was intact. He has also made contact with them to see if they can give him concrete info about the lot number.
 
By doing an extensive amount of research, he is then approaching this with good common sense. But an intact seal alone doesn't always indicate it was actually an unbroken seal either though, thus weighing and taking all other possible steps to ensure it can be identified with near certainty to be at least one of the three powders, is certainly not a waste of time and advisable. Considering the seal, I would bet at the least there are several, who like me, that have broken more canister seals than we can count, and then when I used those canisters on subsequent occasions, they clearly appeared unbroken, yet we knew with absolute certainty other wise. I know I have, and I would bet others here have as well, bought new unopened canisters that the seal didn't appear to be intact at all, so.

God Bless and play safe!

GS
 
I hope the lot number identifies it and he can load it.

I would not put too much importance on the seal. I find gunpowder mouth seals to be considerably less securely attached than vitamin pill bottle seals. If this one was stuck to start with, great.
 
You can identify the VV powder by comparing appearance, smell, and density to known VV powders.

The grain diameters and lengths are precise and can be measured with dial calipers.

An advanced reloader could identify the powder by conducting a series of pressure and velocity tests on samples.
 
gamestalker,
You are correct in being so cautious but if VV can give him an ID by the Lot Number and he does the checks suggested by GLOOB I think he will be safe.

Not one of the "checks" would make me feel safe using that powder but when you add them all together I would use it as long as VV can supply an ID.

Again, only if everything adds up:
The powder has to weigh 8lbs
All the powder in the jug has to look the same (no mixing)
You have to be sure the seal was indeed sealed when YOU opened the jug
VV has to tell you with 100% certainty which powder it is...

I really hope VV comes back with a positive ID. I fear they won't give you a truthful answer and tell you they can't ID the powder for fear of liability. The lawyers usually work overtime at powder companies. :mad:
 
Anyone want to make book on this? :)

Waiting with baited breath here for the positive ID. I am putting my money on N160. Now all of this does hinge on a few things.

The gentleman who provided the powder to the OP provided it in a sealed (with factory seal) container. The OP was told the powder was bought for loading .338 Lapua Magnum. Now if we take that a gospel we know it is VihtaVuori powder. VihtaVuori loadings for the .338 Lapua use N160, N165, N560, N170 and 24N41. Of those possibilities only one powder is distributed in an 8 pound canister and that powder is N160. The OP did mention the powder was a stick powder which does support N160 also. Based on what we have I would put my money on N160 but would limit the size of my bet. :)

Seriously I hope this goes well for the OP as about $180 in free good powder is a sweet gift. With any luck Lapau OY will get back to him or Kaltron Pettibone can help him out.

Ron
 
I sent an email to vv/lapua, got a response back from someone from 'Nammo, Inc.' saying they could not identify type via lot #.
 
Well that sucks. I wonder if Kaltron Pettibone would be of any help if you call them. I know by the packaging it is an older lot.

I gave some thought to what Clark mentioned:

You can identify the VV powder by comparing appearance, smell, and density to known VV powders.

The grain diameters and lengths are precise and can be measured with dial calipers.

An advanced reloader could identify the powder by conducting a series of pressure and velocity tests on samples.

I agree with the last but not the first. I looked closely at some N160 and N165. Here is what we have:

Vihta%20N160%20and%20N165.png

Good luck with a caliper on the two powders. :(

Ron
 
Called Kaltron, they are no longer the importer, they put me in touch with Graff & Son's who had no info and said I needed to talk to the Manufacturer, and said it was handled through Hodgkin, so I called them, and they said lot numbers can duplicate so they can no id it based on lot numbers.

As a last shot for id'ing via lot number, sent an email to Enrico who owns Vihtavuori.
 
I was speculating grain size could used to identify the VV stick powder based on reading the IMR series.

Ed Harris posted this in 1994 on the usenet part of the internet.
 

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OP,
Is the op POSITIVE HE broke the seal?
The type of seal on those 8lb Vihta Vouri containers isn't like the average seal on US packaged powders. It'd be pretty unmistakable breaking those seals. But since no one can give him info based on the lot#........ It's either proceed with EXTREME caution or dump it on the lawn.
 
Ditto the lawn fertilizer post. Your health and safety are not worth risking.
 
One last thing to try, ask your friend to check the area where he was storing the powder in hopes of finding the label that could have fallen off. IMO that's your last chance of using that powder safely.
 
How many 8# jugs of Vihtavuori powder has your buddy bought? Maybe he can check his purchase history and account for the rest.
 
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