Power Pistol or CFE-Pistol for 9mm & .380?

[Gearhead Jim]

9mm- I carry 115 gr +P+ in the gun, so for practice I prefer something that will give me good velocity at standard pressures with 115 or 124 gr plated bullets. Recently, I've been loading with Power Pistol; lots of flash and blast but maybe that's good practice. Good velocities.

.380- I carry Speer Gold Dots in the Glock 42 but use X-treme 100 gr plated for practice because they are so cheap. Most of my .380 practice ammo is loaded with 231 to duplicate the Gold Dot recoil, nothing special.
When using the gun in IDPA Backup Gun class, I need to get 950+ fps from the 100 gr bullet, the batch of Freedom Munitions reloads I bought last year do that but not sure future lots will be as fast. My Hornady manual says Power Pistol will hit 950 using their bullet, and Hodgdon claims the same.

Looking at all that, I'm trying to pick one powder that will do the velocity job in 9mm and the two different velocities in .380
Power Pistol should be a good choice, CFE-Pistol looks good also but I've never used it.

Ammo is loaded on my Dillon 650.

Which of the two would you recommend?

 

[41 Mag]

The only true tell of the tale is to load and run a batch of either over a chrono.

Using recoil isn't a valid test for velocity. You can have one powder which produced a snappy recoil but slower velocity than a softer recoil load does.

I can say that I have used the CFE Pistol in some 9mm loads and with the Berry's bullets in 115 and 124 it hits the velocities listed in the manual from my P226. Granted all things aren't created equal and that is a reality when it comes to firearms.

I have not used any Power Pistol so I cannot compare the two. The main reason I even tried the CFE was to see if the claims were valid and to be able to run it with plated loads and then be able to run my cast loads through without having to strip and clean in between. So far so good it has done well leaving little more than a little soot in the barrels.

 

[ColoradoShooter77]

I've started using CFE-P in my 9mm loads and I'm really liking it. Good thing too, because the only reason I went with it, was because 8lb kegs were available. It works!

 

[TfflHndn]

I used both, and they are good powders. More flash with Power Pistol, as you know. If you can get some, check into BE-86 also. It should give you the results you are looking for, with less flash.

 

[Mad Chemist]

PP gives top tier velocities in both .380 and 9x19. You can simulate NATO spec velocities pretty easily.

I haven't played with CFE Pistol yet so I can't comment on it.

 

[Stev32k]

I've used CFE Pistol, Power Pistol, Bullseye, and W231. As others have commented PP gives a lot of flash and the report is louder than anything else I've used. If you only shoot in daylight that is no problem, but at night it will light up the night sky and blind you. It does give good velocity and the recoil seems less. CFE Pistol seems cleaner burning and it gives good velocity with less flash.

 

[[email protected]]

I tries CFE pistol in my G42 using the 100 grain xtreme bullets. I couldn't get 100% function until I was at max charge, (maybe just a hair over). I switched to power pistol when I ran out of unique.

 

[ColoradoShooter77]

I've been loading 147 grain Berry's RN with 4.2 grains CFE-P, seated at 1.140". This is a max load, it shoots good, no problems at all.

I started at 3.9 grains and is was like shooting mouse-farts, lol. 4.2 grains works good, I think this powder likes to be on the upper end.

Hodgdon list's the pressure at the max load just under 32,000 psi. 9mm can go all the way up to 38,000 psi. I'm tempted to try 4.3 and 4.4 grains and see what happens.

 

[Dudedog]

CFE-P meters well, and has a slightly lower VMD than PP. (a little more dense)
Much less muzzle flash than PP IMO. For daylight practice probably dosen't matter at night it could make a difference. CFE-P is happiest at the mid to high end of it's charge range.
I haven't shot any PP in a while but I would say it might be a tad bit cleaner than PP. I liked it in 9mm, but since I don't own a .380 I have no idea how well it works there.

 

[Grump]

I can speak only to the OP's request on Power Pistol, since CFE-P has appeared locally only once since it was released and I wasn't in the mood to work up yet another set of loads in 9mm, .40, .380, .38....

Power Pistol is a great powder for top velocities in any semiauto IMO, without pressing pressure limits. OP says for practice, so I can wholeheartedly recommend it so long as the practice ammo is unlikely to get mixed in with "duty" ammo or pressed into such service in low light. BUT I believe it flashed less than 296 in some .357 Mag loads I tried...but that ain't sayin' much.

I just can't recommend it for use in an H&K Model 4 in .380. Those are just not built for USA-style high-volume shooting in that caliber. The frame WILL eventually crack at/near the trigger pin hole, the front of the trigger guard, and even at least one other place if HV ammo is fired very often at all.

 

[Grump]

Oh, I have also used a LOT of W-W 231 and can recommend it also (not on the OP's list I know). It has minimal flash, burns clean and makes consistent ammo IME in any semiauto chambering.

Unique also works great if you don't buy into the white-glove crowd's obsession with minimizing soot-like byproducts. It does not *need* ultra-consistent charge weights to give consistent velocities. You might call it pretty charge weight tolerant. Also pretty low flash outside of the Magnum arena.

I don't have a lot of trouble with copper fouling in handgun bores. It just seems to easy to clear out, it's never been a factor for me. Much easier to clean than from HP rifles.

 

[AnselHazen]

I have been playing with Ramshot Silhouette, and X-Treme 124 gr plated in my 9mm. I ran across something that said this was a new name for Winchester Action Pistol. My One Caliber book has Hornady data listing a range from 4.2 to 5.8 grains. Just a few days ago I shot some test loads from 4.5 to 4.7 and I got decent groups just freehand , no sandbag. The chart had 4.6 grains at 950 fps.

 

[CZ9shooter]

Power Pistol has been versatile for me in 9mm and 380.

In 9mm I use it to replicate, and even exceed, many factory +P loads. Also works well for me in medium velocity practice ammo with jacketed and plates bullets. I use faster powders for low end stuff. Accuracy generally increases as charge goes up with Power Pistol in my experiance.

In 380 I use it mostly for very mild loads. 100gr at 700 fps. I chose it for this application due to it's slightly higher charge weights and it's good metering characteristics. It feels like the recoil is less sharp with this powder as well. I have tested it up to about 1000 fps as well. It did the job nicely, but I dont have a need for hotter ammo.

 

[sellersm]

I have been playing with Ramshot Silhouette, and X-Treme 124 gr plated in my 9mm. I ran across something that said this was a new name for Winchester Action Pistol. My One Caliber book has Hornady data listing a range from 4.2 to 5.8 grains. Just a few days ago I shot some test loads from 4.5 to 4.7 and I got decent groups just freehand , no sandbag. The chart had 4.6 grains at 950 fps.

Silhouette is indeed the 'new formulation' of WAP powder! It's one of my favorites in 124gr 9mm loads, especially with hollow points!

As to the OP question: PP is a great powder, but flashy as mentioned. I'm really liking CFE Pistol as it seems to have the same characteristic, but is less flashy. It likes the upper end of load data, at least in my guns...

 

[Gearhead Jim]

Thanks for all the replies.

An interesting observation about Power Pistol-
Everyone says it has a lot of flash, and if I'm shooting 9mm in a booth at in indoor range, I notice there is somewhat more flash and blast than most factory ammo.
But when I shoot an IDPA match at the same indoor range, not in the booth, and light is about like "early dusk"; I barely notice the flash.
If someone videotapes me shooting, some of my shots will show a really big muzzle flash and others apparently have the flash between frames on the video and there is no visible flash at all. Amazing.

So for my uses, the flash from Power Pistol is not an issue. For others in slightly different conditions, might be a big deal.

 

[Gearhead Jim]

"I tries CFE pistol in my G42 using the 100 grain xtreme bullets. I couldn't get 100% function until I was at max charge, (maybe just a hair over). I switched to power pistol when I ran out of unique"

Can you tell me what charge weight and OAL you were using?
If CFE-P won't produce good practice loads for my G42, then it's out the window.

 

[[email protected]]

First let me explain my test criteria to determine a 100% reliable load. I use a dirty and dry gun. When I shoot I point the muzzle almost straight down so gravity is acting on the slide against recoil. Finally I try different griping techniques (normal high grip, low grip, slight limp wrist, medium limp wrist to full blown sissy wimp wrist ( say that five times fast).

A load must cycle 100% through my medium limp wrist testing, as I will accept some failures at full limp wrist. My theory is that I am not always guaranteed the chance to be able to make sure that I have the proper grip, and since I load bulk in production runs, I dont know how the rounds will be put to use.

When I first got my G42 I tried my p3at load of the xtreme 100 grain at .965 on top of 2.8 grains of Bullseye. It didn't meet my above testing specs, so I then began testing other loads. Keep in mind that this was a brand new gun that hasnt had it's first cleaning when I did this workup.

First up was Unique and I found a good load at 3.5 grains. I ran about 100 rounds to verify the load and then I went to pulling the ol press handle to load up the other bullets in the 500 pack. I lucked up and got a good deal on some fired 380 brass and I ordered 1,000 more of the xtremes. My problem was that I didn't have enough Unique left to load them, and well the powder situation is much like it is today. I began trying different powders that I had.

CFE powder was tested when I got my brass and bullets in. The online Hodgdon data lists 4.0 grains of CFE as a max charge using Hornady 100 grain FMJ. and a COL of .980. I have been using the xtreme bullet for some time and I use a col of .965 as my working col. Much longer and my p3at will choke. Its .15 difference in COL but the Hornady is a round nose and the xtreme is flat point, so I decided that my .965 COl would not get me in trouble by raising pressure with a deeper seated bullet, since the bullet should be shorter. I also decided that the 4.0 grain max Hodgdon listed would be my max charge. I believed that I may have a little higher pressure, but I had confidence that the locked breech of the G42 could handle loads loaded warmer.

Pressure tell tale signs do not show up until it is way too late on low pressure rounds such as the 380, so my workup ended to where I was comfortable shooting without a heavy welding glove for protection. I got to 3.9 weighed grains and this load was not 100% using my medium limp wrist grip. With a normal high grip it was the first one or two cycling rounds that failed to feed. It was more of a short stroke of the slide. If I lowered my grip by about 1/4 of a inch it was worse. I tried the same at 4.0 grains (my max) and it was a little more reliable. I did try a few just to see at 4.2 (ABOVE MAX) and they seemed fine, but I didnt load enough to really run through the paces.

Much like you I use a progessive press and I dont plan to weigh each charge. MY Hornady Powder measure will throw CFE right on with an occasional .1 grain variance. Keep in mind that this was with an almost brand new gun ( little over 100 rounds) and it has not had it's first cleaning at the time.

 

[ljnowell]

For your application power pistol would be hard to beat. What I have always liked about it is that it works well in loads of greatly differing pressures. For example 9mm vs 45acp and 380. 45 and 380 run at a considerably lower max pressure yet power pistol will burn clean and produce good loads in both.

 

[Gearhead Jim]

"First let me explain my test criteria to determine a 100% reliable load. I use a dirty and dry gun. When I shoot I point the muzzle almost straight down so gravity is acting on the slide against recoil. Finally I try different griping techniques (normal high grip, low grip, slight limp wrist, medium limp wrist to full blown sissy wimp wrist ( say that five times fast).

A load must cycle 100% through my medium limp wrist testing, as I will accept some failures at full limp wrist. My theory is that I am not always guaranteed the chance to be able to make sure that I have the proper grip, and since I load bulk in production runs, I dont know how the rounds will be put to use.

When I first got my G42 I tried my p3at load of the xtreme 100 grain at .965 on top of 2.8 grains of Bullseye. It didn't meet my above testing specs, so I then began testing other loads. Keep in mind that this was a brand new gun that hasnt had it's first cleaning when I did this workup.

First up was Unique and I found a good load at 3.5 grains. I ran about 100 rounds to verify the load and then I went to pulling the ol press handle to load up the other bullets in the 500 pack. I lucked up and got a good deal on some fired 380 brass and I ordered 1,000 more of the xtremes. My problem was that I didn't have enough Unique left to load them, and well the powder situation is much like it is today. I began trying different powders that I had.

CFE powder was tested when I got my brass and bullets in. The online Hodgdon data lists 4.0 grains of CFE as a max charge using Hornady 100 grain FMJ. and a COL of .980. I have been using the xtreme bullet for some time and I use a col of .965 as my working col. Much longer and my p3at will choke. Its .15 difference in COL but the Hornady is a round nose and the xtreme is flat point, so I decided that my .965 COl would not get me in trouble by raising pressure with a deeper seated bullet, since the bullet should be shorter. I also decided that the 4.0 grain max Hodgdon listed would be my max charge. I believed that I may have a little higher pressure, but I had confidence that the locked breech of the G42 could handle loads loaded warmer.

Pressure tell tale signs do not show up until it is way too late on low pressure rounds such as the 380, so my workup ended to where I was comfortable shooting without a heavy welding glove for protection. I got to 3.9 weighed grains and this load was not 100% using my medium limp wrist grip. With a normal high grip it was the first one or two cycling rounds that failed to feed. It was more of a short stroke of the slide. If I lowered my grip by about 1/4 of a inch it was worse. I tried the same at 4.0 grains (my max) and it was a little more reliable. I did try a few just to see at 4.2 (ABOVE MAX) and they seemed fine, but I didnt load enough to really run through the paces.

Much like you I use a progessive press and I dont plan to weigh each charge. MY Hornady Powder measure will throw CFE right on with an occasional .1 grain variance. Keep in mind that this was with an almost brand new gun ( little over 100 rounds) and it has not had it's first cleaning at the time."


Great reply, thanks.

I've been using the X-treme 100 gr plated FP loaded to an OAL of .950", which is the same as Freedom Munitions reloads with that bullet. Fired in 4 different G42's, there have been no problems related to the length. No idea how that length would work in other guns, but it's probably ok in most guns or Freedom wouldn't use it.

My powder charge is 3.4 gr of WW231. That's above the max load that Winchester lists for a 100 gr bullet, but less than the Hornady max for 100 gr and less than the Speer starting load for 95 gr FMJ. I understand the effects of different components, but geez...
Anyway, my load averages 843 fps from a Glock 42. That produces the same "free recoil energy" in a G42 as the Speer 90 gr Gold Dot which averages 933 fps from my gun. Feels the same to my hand, too; which was my goal. I have not deliberately limp-wrist-tested this load since it's a practice-only load, but have fired something over a thousand of them through four G42's in "draw-and-shoot" practice where my grip is sometimes less than perfect, with no problems, so it's good enough for my purposes.

Unless someone else can report good results with CFE-P in .380, I'll have to take it off my list and just go with Power Pistol for both .380 and 9mm.

 

[evtSmtx]

+1 to what TfflHndn said

 

[Gearhead Jim]

It looks like Power Pistol is the winner.
If I can find some...

 

[JamieC]

I've had great results with Power Pistol, use for practice, IDPA loads. 124gr Bayou Bullets LRN, average about 1060fps @ 5.1gr. I've loaded them up to 6.1gr, over 1100fps. 3.6gr 105gr LSWC in my wife's P238 work well, haven't chrono'd them yet. Just tested some 45acp loads, 225gr TC Bayou Bullets, 5.4gr, feels very similar to 4.1gr of Bullseye. Need to chrono both of those loads. I've seen the 'flash' during night shoot classes, no issue at all during the day. PP is louder than comparable loads of Bulleye, but..