Practice what you carry...so why not carry FMJ?

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In this thread OP ponders carrying less effective ammo in order to save less money than the cost of a pizza.
I want bullets that make the biggest potential holes possible, FMJ fails to meet that basic criteria.
 
Maybe he really likes pizza.

Joking asside, the OP mentions short barreled guns being picky eaters of HPs. And asks if it's a great sin to use FMJs for defense.

I think ultimately the answer is find a small gun that isn't pick with any ammo. Find a gun that reliably feeds HPs and this entire question goes away.
 
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cheygriz said:
Penetration is an interesting subject. Most people like to quote the FBI tests. But remember, the FBI was interested in law enforcement ammo.

An LEO may need to engage through a barrier. A non- LEO, not so much. If you feel the need to engage through car doors or barriers, your choice of lawyers may be more important than your choice of ammunition.

The human body is normally less than 10 inches thick. A bullet that penetrates 12 inches will go completely through. If shooting from the side, you may encounter a body that is 14-15 inches through. But the vital organs are less than 10 inches from any angle.

The needs of an LEO, and the needs of a non-LEO are different. Factor that in when choosing defensive ammo.
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According to the CDC, something like 40% of Americans are overweight. About 1/3 are obese. You can plan for the skinny guys if you want. Statistically, there's a pretty good chance that if you have to shoot someone in this country, they are going to be big.

Now consider a typical threat stance. Whether someone is shooting at you, coming at you with a knife, or attempting to pummel you with a club, note how a natural aggressive stance puts arms in the way of the thoracic cavity. If you study after action reports, you know defensive wounds to the arms are common on both sides of a violent encounter.

The epidermis is elastic and strong. Studies show that just penetrating the skin can account for 3 inches or more of penetration in ballistic gelatin. And we haven't even considered clothes or other possible barriers.

Penetration is your friend. Too much penetration may or may not pose a danger to others, but too little penetration will more than likely get you killed. So I would carry FMJ long before I carried any frangible or any of the nuclear ninja assault rounds some people carry. A heavy for caliber JHP is preferable, but barring that for any reason, a FMJ, esp one with a flat meplat, will do. I'd rather have "too much" penetration than too little.
 
fordtrucks said:
Read massad ayoob on this and court cases he presents.
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Better information gathering, research and the Internet show that some of Massad Ayoob opinions (and they are just opinions, not the 10 Commandments) are full of sheep dip.

fordtrucks said:
Always carry hollow points for defense (or a similar cartridge designed for 12-18” penetration).
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Why always?

And why 12 - 18" penetration?

Just because the FBI says so doesn't mean it is the best for me. In fact I am coming to like more penetration not less. Consider if the attacker uses cover such as in the Gay Nightclub shooting a few years ago. Or the workplace / church shooters that barricade themselves. Or if the shooter wears body armor of some type.

Given how soft sheetrock is and how thin of wood and plastic type building materials that are used today it is not hard to imagine a situation where I would shoot through the cover that my attacker would be hiding behind. Thus I want a heavier and faster (+P) bullet.

fordtrucks said:
Never carry hand loads. Extraordinarily bad idea if it comes to court.
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Court cases please. Not more sheep dip.

fordtrucks said:
No fmj in .380 as far as I’m concerned too. Fmj in .380 will pass through as well. .
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You are apparently assuming that none of your shots will miss the target. If so you are a exceptionally well trained and cool headed shooter.

Research shows that 70 - 80% of the shots fired miss the intended target. I am more concerned about training to hit my target than to fuss a lot about the rounds that hit it overpenetrating.

fordtrucks said:
You want to be able to show in court (if it comes to that) you did as much as possible to minimize collateral damage and pass throughs.
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er, where is that a legal element to be required to be present to be justified in using deadly force?
 
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There are many choices for CC and ammo, but there are some important qualities that every CC rig should have.

WoodchuckAssassin said:
Many short barreled (<3 inches) auto loaders are picky eaters
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I would encourage every CCW holder to choose a firearm that is able to cycle hollowpoint bullets. Firearms that are known to be picky/FTF/FTE should not be carried for personal protection.

WoodchuckAssassin said:
is there any great sin in carrying FMJ for personal protection?
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Today's typical LEO hollowpoints perform, transferring energy through consistent deformation. In the event of an incident, carrying defensive ammo not only gives an advantage in stopping the threat, it also shows responsibility, especially if it is a type/brand that is used by LEO's.

WoodchuckAssassin said:
It just seems like someone can shoot a lot more ammo at .18 cents a round vs the .50+ cents
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Cost...cost...cost. Is this where the hangup is? The problem with the original post is that the premise of this thread being "practice what you carry" is not correct in most circumstances. By all means, practice a lot. Know where your CC shoots, adjust the sights as necessary to be on target. Then, choose a well respected, defensive load, such as: Federal HST, Speer Gold Dot, Remington Golden Saber, or Hornady Critical Defense. Purchase at least one box of 50 cartridges. Shoot a couple of five round groups to verify cycling and zero. Responsible ammo choices can be made for $30 or less.

WoodchuckAssassin said:
where is the line between expansion performance and ammo reliability?
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A responsible CCW holder should recognize that these are not mutually exclusive. Both expansion performance and ammo reliability are required in most circumstances.
 
124gn speer gold dots are very reliable in my glock 26 and were equally reliable in my keltec p11.

In the case of penetration, expandion, and reliability in a self defense firearm I insist on having my cake and eating it too. I'm grateful so many quality guns and ammunitions are able to do all three.
 
So, I'm no expert, but what I've been able to gather about ammunition is that the are two general paradigms as to the most effective ammo.

1. Slow and heavy which is the older of the two lines of thinking. This one has shown the best performance with low quality ammo (because that's all they had). 44 special, 45 colt and 45 acp are great examples of this.

2. Light, fast and expanding. This is the newer line of thinking and if you're shooting smaller caliber handguns it's really the only effective way to go (assuming that they have a decent amount of energy of course). It's especially great in the fact that it takes advantage of the exponential importance of velocity in the energy of the projectile while simultaneously ensuring that all of that energy gets dumped into the target.

And as far as penetration and lawsuits and all that jazz, the lawsuit/criminal charges from collateral damage caused by a missed shot with a hollow point are going to be just as bad as if you had overpenetrated and cause the same damage. And you will most likely miss during any given engagement considering the fact that it is next to impossible to train at the stress levels that engagement will produce (and that having a physiological effect with direct impact on your shooting ability).

Anyways, if you're going to use low tech ammo, at least carry a slow, heavy, big bore gun. Sorry for rambling a bit.
 
If a 3 in. gun won't feed reliably then switching to ball is not going to fix the problem. Having worked for 10 years on a lot of 5 in. 1911s and a much smaller number of 3 in. 1911s I would NEVER consider carrying a 3 in. 1911. There are just too many things that can choke one - everything happens much faster and in less space than a 5 in. gun. There is almost no room for error on a 3 in. Unless your magazine spring is completely within spec it cannot get the next round up in time to feed because the slide's speed and the distance it travels is asking a great deal from the magazine spring. If it becomes even a little weak the last two rounds won't make it to the breechface in time. Extra power magazine springs are almost a must have for these guns. We had several come through our shop that had been to several other smiths who gave up on them. I remember one Colt in particular that I spent weeks working on and never could get it to run reliably. I got it to about 80% reliability. It was returned to the owner at no charge. I told him to sell it. Chopping a 5 in. 1911 down to 3 in. changes the whole picture on reliability. I would much rather deal with humping a heavier 5 in gun than trusting a 3 in. gun for any use. The 3 in. 1911 was originally created solely as an ornamental sidearm for General Officers - not as an actual fighting tool. I would LOVE to see what Browning's reaction would have been upon seeing a 3 in. version of his masterpiece. I think he would probably fall down laughing. Soon everybody who owns a 3 in. 1911 that DOES run will tell me I'm wrong. You guys are just VERY LUCKY.
 
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Charlie98 said:
I always say this... at The Moment of Truth your choice of ammo type makes no matter (unless it's something silly like handgun shotshells, etc.)
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Yes, I agree that random chance plays a great role. There is a well known Bible verse "The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding; but time and chance happeneth to them all."

But there is a well known response to this verse: "But that's the way to bet." You play that odds, and the odds are that pistol bullets that expand on impact will serve you best. We rely on reason and science to figure the odds as best we can. To do otherwise is to reject the advantages that science and reason give us.

(Yes, there can be situations where the element of random chance is so large that it overwhelms all planning. I don't think the choice of EDC ammunition is one of them, but if you do, I cannot prove you are wrong.)
 
I'm not arguing the point, my only point is... even the best expanding bullet won't expand if you don't hit the target, or jams up the firearm it's in. Make the best educated choice you can in selection of firearm and ammunition... and then train with it like your life depends on it. Once you walk out the door... that's when randomness comes into play.
 
entropy said:
Read Massad Ayoob, he'll tell you why it's a bad idea better than I can. And he has LE street cred as well as expert witness cred in actual court cases.
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His "OPINION" has been refuted many times. Just point me to a case where this was an issue? I'll wait.
 
I just happened to be seated next to Mas Ayoob on a long flight around 1991, recognized him immediately and started up a long conversation with him. He was friendly, polite and very articulate but I was not all that impressed with his knowledge and his opinions regarding carrying handloaded ammunition. He's a writer after all (Yes, I know he is a famous "expert witness"). I happened to be reading Brian Enos' book "Practical Shooting - Beyond Fundamentals" and had it on my lap. It was quickly apparent to me that he didn't think much of USPSA/IPSC shooting. He does have some serious skills with a firearm though. You absolutely don't want him shooting at ya. But if I have to carry a 1911 it's going to be loaded with ball.
 
WoodchuckAssassin said:
Many short barreled (<3 inches) auto loaders are picky eaters, so is there any great sin in carrying FMJ for personal protection?

I realize the Pandora's box of opinions this may open, and if you have another thread that already explores this thoroughly (I'm sure they're out there), I'd be happy to read it.

It just seems like someone can shoot a lot more ammo at .18 cents a round vs the .50+ cents for a quality hollow point, so where is the line between expansion performance and ammo reliability? My own feeling is that I'd rather run a couple rounds of fmj and KNOW that they will cycle reliable, vs a percent of that number of rounds in expensive hollow points. Crazy? Maybe, but I'm curious what you all think. As always, thank you for your thoughts.
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Ok if you believe in carry what you shoot are you confident that .18 cent ammo is dependible enough? If so then why not.

Advertising works so expect others question and ridicule your decision, just remember there’s safety in the herd and advertising works.
 
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My opinion on "picky" micro-pistols is that if it will reliably shoot a good defensive load like Winchester Ranger "T" Series or HST, then I don't care about what other loads it doesn't like. It doesn't like Gold Dot or Hornady Critical _____ ? I don't care, as long as it keeps on reliably cycling HST or Ranger "T"

It doesn't like Remington Golden Sabers but it runs like a champ with Gold Dots ? - then its OK, I'll just keep it stoked with Gold Dots.

If a pistol doesn't shoot any of the top-performing SD loads, then it has to be fixed or it gets sold. Keeping it loaded with FMJ is not a viable option.
 
Texas10mm said:
His "OPINION" has been refuted many times. Just point me to a case where this was an issue? I'll wait.
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In several of his books, he advises carrying exactly what the local PD carries-not too many of them carry FMJ. As for cases, I don't have access to Westlaw anymore, but if there aren't criminal cases involving FMJ hitting others after passing through an attacker, there surely are civil suits.

I haven't read your books/articles extolling the reasons for carrying FMJ. o_O
 
I shoot FMJ for aiming and trigger practice.
I shoot Hornady American Gunner with XTP bullets for defensive practice and for self defense. Why? Because they are a good round, they are affordable for practice and they hit consistent with my point of aim for my practice ammo, Blazer Brass in .380 and 9mm.

I have tried nearly every .380 and 9mm defense ammo in my guns. Some hit better where I am aiming and some don’t. The ones that work well in my guns aren’t always available. If you shoot a defense load that you cannot find anywhere and when you do it’s in limited supply, what good is it? You need to practice and be proficient with what you shoot! That is why I shoot American Gunner ammo and carry it as well. I have never had an ammo related malfunction with American Gunner. I cannot say the same for many other high priced defensive loads in 9mm, including Hornady’s Critical Defense.
In .380, I shoot a Remington RM380. It has never malfunctioned. Never! Hundreds of rounds, at least 800, and counting.
 
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