Pre 1899 ANTIQUE revolver for which I completed a Form 4473

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orpington

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I recently looked up this revolver in my files and noted despite being antique, I filled out a Form 4473 when I purchased it. I don’t plan on selling it but, if I do, should I mandate the buyer complete a Form 4473 that supersedes mine, even though an antique so that someone doesn’t own a firearm for which I am recorded on file as owning?
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I suppose there may be a bit of state legislation that considers it needing a 4473 because it uses metallic cartridges? I didn't fill one out for mine, however, it was also a "private" sale in a middle of a west Texas gun show.
 
My understanding is that anything that takes fixed ammunition requires a 4473. I have recently purchased multiple antiques which use fixed ammunition and was required to ship to FFL and transfer using a 4473 for each separate transaction. This includes guns made in 1868, 1871, 1897, 1888, and a handful of more modern firearms.
 
My understanding is that anything that takes fixed ammunition requires a 4473. I have recently purchased multiple antiques which use fixed ammunition and was required to ship to FFL and transfer using a 4473 for each separate transaction. This includes guns made in 1868, 1871, 1897, 1888, and a handful of more modern firearms.
That's what I was thinking, But I wasn't 100% sure since I've only filled out two 4473's in my lifetime.
 
Many existing firearms in my state that fire current cartridges, as long as pre 1899, do not require a 4473.

I didn’t recall completing it, but there it is! My guess is that the seller didn’t believe that forward facing owl’s heads on the grips = an Iver Johnson antique, but that’s just a guess.
 
My understanding is that anything that takes fixed ammunition requires a 4473. I have recently purchased multiple antiques which use fixed ammunition and was required to ship to FFL and transfer using a 4473 for each separate transaction. This includes guns made in 1868, 1871, 1897, 1888, and a handful of more modern firearms.
Just a few months ago there were a number of 7 mm Mauser rifles for sale on gun broker that specifically said “no FFL needed.” There was a fellow who made a pretty good business at one time selling Smith and Wesson handguns that were made before the cutoff date. So I don’t think your information is entirely accurate.
 
I recently looked up this revolver in my files and noted despite being antique, I filled out a Form 4473 when I purchased it. I don’t plan on selling it but, if I do, should I mandate the buyer complete a Form 4473 that supersedes mine, even though an antique so that someone doesn’t own a firearm for which I am recorded on file as owning?
In most states, it's perfectly legal and common for people to sell any non NFA firearm they want with no record of the sale at all. Don't see the point in doing something different than that just because an FFL screwed up and had you fill out paper work that wasn't legally required.
 
My understanding is that anything that takes fixed ammunition requires a 4473. I have recently purchased multiple antiques which use fixed ammunition and was required to ship to FFL and transfer using a 4473 for each separate transaction. This includes guns made in 1868, 1871, 1897, 1888, and a handful of more modern firearms.

If the firearm was truly made before 1898 then it is an antique per the NFA of 34 and GCA of 68 and does not meet the federal standards as a firearm, even if it uses fixed ammunition. Replicas or anything made after 1898 that uses fixed ammunition that is readily available IS a firearm and requires a background check when bright from a dealer.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firear...arms-ammunition-gun-control-act-definitions-0

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firear...rms-national-firearms-act-definitions-antique

Here is an example.

An original Colt chambered in 45LC made before 1898 can be sold all day long without doing a background check while a modern replica of the same gun does require a BG check (if bought from a dealer).

As always check your state laws! Some states have more strict laws and require background checks to be done on antiques, muzzle loaders and even air guns.
 
In NY if it fires commonly available ammo it needs a form. Skipped on the pin fired. Completed for the trap door.
 
I do, should I mandate the buyer complete a Form 4473 that supersedes mine, even though an antique so that someone doesn’t own a firearm for which I am recorded on file as owning?
Federally, the only place you are "on" a 4473 is in the files at the gun shop where you bought it.
Given its age, there are no Manufacturer's records for ATF to call up to find what distributor sold it to which shop.
That's Federal.

Various States have widely differing rules on what records are kept, and by who or whom. If, for instance, you were in a FOID-using State that required recording of s/n and the like, then that information would be held by that Agency.

Very few places actually track gun sales. This despite popular opinion to the contrary.
 
Very few places actually track gun sales. This despite popular opinion to the contrary.

As seems to be the common consensus, despite myths to the contrary. So, despite there being a Form 4473 with my name out there, it can, at this time, be sold as an antique, should I wish to sell it some day.
 
As seems to be the common consensus, despite myths to the contrary. So, despite there being a Form 4473 with my name out there, it can, at this time, be sold as an antique, should I wish to sell it some day.
Correct (for now)
 
The OP reflects the common misunderstanding that a Form 4473 puts the gun on some kind of "registry." This is not true. The Form 4473 is strictly transactional. If the Form 4473 is filled in by mistake (for example, in the case of an antque), it goes no further. It's still an antique going forward.
My understanding is that anything that takes fixed ammunition requires a 4473. I have recently purchased multiple antiques which use fixed ammunition and was required to ship to FFL and transfer using a 4473 for each separate transaction.
The seller might require a Form 4473 but it's not federal law.
 
If the firearm was truly made before 1898 then it is an antique per the NFA of 34 and GCA of 68 and does not meet the federal standards as a firearm, even if it uses fixed ammunition.
Whoa. There's a lot to unpack here.

First of all, the date is "pre-1899" for antiques. A gun made in 1898 is normally considered an antique.

Secondly, the definition of "antique" is different when it comes to the NFA. For example, a pre-1899 machine gun that uses commercially available ammunition is still subject to all the NFA rules. But a crank-operated Gatling gun is not a "machine gun" even if it's made today.
 
Federally, the only place you are "on" a 4473 is in the files at the gun shop where you bought it.
Given its age, there are no Manufacturer's records for ATF to call up to find what distributor sold it to which shop.
That's Federal.

Various States have widely differing rules on what records are kept, and by who or whom. If, for instance, you were in a FOID-using State that required recording of s/n and the like, then that information would be held by that Agency.

Very few places actually track gun sales. This despite popular opinion to the contrary.

Bear in mind everytime a gun shop folds and the licensee's 01 lapses (this goes for 03's also) they are supposed to be forwarded to the ATF. They get them in the end.
 
Whoa. There's a lot to unpack here.

First of all, the date is "pre-1899" for antiques. A gun made in 1898 is normally considered an antique.

Secondly, the definition of "antique" is different when it comes to the NFA. For example, a pre-1899 machine gun that uses commercially available ammunition is still subject to all the NFA rules. But a crank-operated Gatling gun is not a "machine gun" even if it's made today.

And for this topic we are talking about revolvers only. NFA items are a whole different subject.
 
The legend there is that BATF does not have the "funding" to file or computerize those out of business dealer records.
There have been neutral correspondents who have visited the AFTE dead records facility.
It has (currently) all of 13 employees.
It very much resembles the last scene in Raiders of the lost Ark, but not nearly so neatly crated and stacked.
All of the records are in "as is" condition. Which includes thousands of hand-written books, all stacked on pallets.
So, there are pallets with every Bound Book from every Montgomery Wards store; every Sears; every K-Mart & Fed-Mart that ever had an FFL. When those companies went into receivership or bankruptcy, no one was paid to organize the records, they were just boxed up and put on pallets (some were just boxes mailed to ATFE, and ATFE put them on pallets). Also, Bound Books recovered from destroyed (fire, flood, etc.) FFL are stored there, in "as is" condition.
We have just gone a half century since GCA 68 created this mess, there have been a lot of FFLs in 50 years.

ATFE does not much talk about it, but records more than about five years old are worthless. (Which is why FFL and dispose of records after ten years.)
The manufacturers change--consider how a search of Marlin records would look.
The distributors & wholesalers come and go (and change names). That breaks the next link in the chain.
Gun shops & FFL come and go, too. They move, too.
Lastly, the buyers have lives. They sell stuff, sometimes to "Steve" at "the place." Their houses burn down or flood or are hit by tornadoes. They pass from the mortal coil, too--"Oh, we give't to Cous' Clem down to the river."

I want to remember that GSA was of the opinion that computerizing the ATFE dead records would want a man-century, and that would only be to 75% accuracy.
 
And for this topic we are talking about revolvers only. NFA items are a whole different subject.
Well, you mentioned the NFA of '34 when discussing the definition of antiques. The NFA definition is different from the Title I definition. A smoothbore revolver could come under the NFA even though made before 1899.
 
Bear in mind every time a gun shop folds and the licensee's 01 lapses (this goes for 03's also) they are supposed to be forwarded to the ATF. They get them in the end.
The ATF is prohibited from digitizing those defunct dealer records, so without a searchable database they might as well not even exist. (Traces normally work by contacting dealers in the chain of possession from the manufacturer. A defunct dealer breaks the chain.) This is like the final scene in Raiders of the Lost Ark, where the Ark disappeared in the bowels of a huge government warehouse.
 
OP- How do you know for sure that the gun is pre-1899?

That model of IJ straddled the cut-off date.
That's an excellent point. For any model that straddles the cutoff date, a dealer would be justified in requiring a Form 4473. He should not be expected to research every such gun in detail.

If the new owner finds out for sure, later, that the gun is in fact an antique, he can treat it as such.
 
Bear in mind everytime a gun shop folds and the licensee's 01 lapses (this goes for 03's also) they are supposed to be forwarded to the ATF. They get them in the end.

No longer true for FFL03's and hasn't been for a number of years.
 
Why not just burn or destroy all these useless and outdated records? Paying a rent to store all this seems rather pointless.
 
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