Quantcast
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Press: "Gun shows have loopholes!" Really?

Discussion in 'Legal' started by rajb123, Feb 4, 2011.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. rajb123

    rajb123 member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2010
    Messages:
    892
    I don't understand this. So, if you do a transaction with a non-FFL at a gun show you are not required to file paperwork or do background checks? Is this the "loophole"? Is this all states?

    ...the last gun show I attended had a cop at the door; I think this was to check pistol permits but I'm not sure.

    Thx...
     
  2. cambeul41

    cambeul41 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2005
    Messages:
    1,186
    Location:
    Southeast Michigan
    I don't know about all states, but basically you have it. As non-FFLs, we can't do the checks, so any closing of the "loophole" would prohibit private sales at the gun shows without going through (and paying) an FFL.

    Michigan does still have paperwork that must be filed for pistol sales. This does not require an FFL.
    http://www.michigan.gov/documents/ri-060_6454_7.pdf
     
  3. henschman

    henschman Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2010
    Messages:
    2,880
    Location:
    Oklahoma City
    yes, the government has not yet put a prior restraint on the right to bear arms when the transaction is between two individuals.
     
  4. k4swb

    k4swb Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2010
    Messages:
    290
    I don't know about all states but in NC all firearm transfers must abide by all federal and state laws. A form 4473 is supposed to be filled out and retained by the seller and in the case of handguns a purchase permit must be obtained or the buyer can use their CCW permit and this info is retained by the seller. EVEN IF THEY ARE GIVING SOMEONE A GUN. This is almost never enforced. NC doesn't have a loophole, just unenforced laws.
     
  5. Str8Shooter

    Str8Shooter Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2006
    Messages:
    115
    Location:
    Colorado
    In Colorado, no one can buy a firearm at a gun show without going through a background check:

     
  6. armoredman

    armoredman Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2003
    Messages:
    16,720
    Location:
    proud to be in AZ
    AZ says if you conduct a sale and violate the law, that's on you. So we have lots of private sales without government interferance, no issues.
     
  7. TexasRifleman

    TexasRifleman Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2003
    Messages:
    18,302
    Location:
    Ft. Worth
    Yep, that's it. Following the law 100% is now considered a "loophole" apparently.
     
  8. Joe in fla

    Joe in fla Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2011
    Messages:
    127
    You got it! + 1
     
  9. ants

    ants Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2007
    Messages:
    3,710
    Of course, TxRifleman is being facetious and cynical, and rightfully so.

    There is no loophole.

    The anti-gun community creates issues that don't exist, to lend support their aims. Because that's all they got. It's a constitutional right, not a granted privilege. So they have to make something up or they got nothing.

    Just like the "collective right" concept (the interpretation that guns are only for the militia) they screamed for 40 years, until the Supreme Court blew that one away in DC v Heller.
     
  10. oneounceload

    oneounceload member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2008
    Messages:
    15,710
    Location:
    Hot and Humid FL
    Repeat the lie often enough and it becomes truth - THAT is what they are counting on - that and controlling what your children are taught - it is a battle that will take time, and they are prepared to take the time
     
  11. liberty -r- death

    liberty -r- death Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2009
    Messages:
    42
    Illinois

    Under Illinois law. . .

    Any one selling or trading a firearm at a gun show or in the parking lot is required to have an FFL handle the transaction. (most FFL's will do this for a $12-$15 fee) Then the FFL then does sales paperwork, calls in a background check on the purchaser, and then holds the firearm for 24hrs on long guns or 72hrs on hand guns. This is Illinois' idea of closing the "loophole" federal law allows.

    I can tell you that it makes private transactions very rare at gun shows. It's also makes it very difficult to make purchases if the gun show is not in the town you live in because of the waiting period. When it's all said a done what may be good deal often is not because of the hassle of the transfer laws Illinois imposes at gun shows.
     
  12. Owen Sparks

    Owen Sparks member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2007
    Messages:
    4,524
    What about the parking lot across the street? It is really easy to arrange to meet somewhere off the premises. How about the McDonalds parking lot on the corner?
     
  13. 52grain

    52grain Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2009
    Messages:
    664
    My understanding of the situation (I am no expert on gun laws):

    If a dealer wants to sell a gun to a private individual, he has to run a NICS check, gun show or no.

    In many places (local laws vary) it is perfectly legal for one private individual to sell a gun to another regardless of how they know each other (unless it's in prison or drug rehab :)) provided that the seller has no reason to believe that the purchaser is a prohibited individual. The government has not created a mechanism for private individuals to run a NICS check.

    Calling it a "loophole" is very misleading and it upsets me that the news media calls it that without even realizing how wrong it is. If dealers did not have to run a NICS check at gun shows that would be a loophole. To me calling it the gun show loop hole means that things are somehow different at gun shows than they otherwise would be.
     
  14. BleysAhrens

    BleysAhrens Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2010
    Messages:
    135
    Location:
    Arizona
    I have yet to hear the news report fairly on this matter, other than a short blurb after the video: "it is not necessary to have a back ground check in a sale between private citizens."
     
  15. gc70

    gc70 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Messages:
    3,024
    Location:
    North Carolina
    loophole: any restriction for which gun control advocates have not yet been able to pass a law.
     
  16. stuckinsocal

    stuckinsocal Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2009
    Messages:
    116
    Freedom is now considered a "loophole". And apparently many "pro gun" people agree, I've seen more and more supposedly pro gun people advocate for background checks for PPT sales.
     
  17. WeedWacker

    WeedWacker Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2007
    Messages:
    100
    ......... What?:scrutiny:
     
  18. skipjack

    skipjack Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2006
    Messages:
    183
    Location:
    Maryland USA
    In Maryland, all regulated firearm transfers (handguns and so
    called assault rifles) are subject to a background check.
     
  19. vaherder

    vaherder Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2010
    Messages:
    313
    When you sell a car are you required to verify that the individual purchasing your car has a valid DL and liability insurance?

    Do I have to do a background check to sell fertilizer and diesel fuel to the farmer down the road? Should dealers be required to do background checks or sell to only US citizens?

    You go to a chain saw show and purchase a chainsaw from a private individual then to drive to local shopping mall and go nuts killing and wounding dozens. Is there a loophole for private chainsaw sales? Do dealers need to do background checks?

    You walk around a gun show with a sign on your back saying HK45 sale and you meet a prospective buyer. You both go offsite to complete the sale at a local Mcds parking lot. New laws mandating checks are stupid and worthless.

    NRA needs to get out do a better job of counteracting Bloomberg and his communist storm troopers.

    Va herder
     
  20. bikemutt
    • Contributing Member

    bikemutt Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2010
    Messages:
    4,187
    Location:
    Vancouver, WA
    Once they get done closing the gun show "loophole" then it's on to private party sales through the local classifieds, they won't stop at porch, they're coming inside.

    On the seller side of the private party transfer, the problem as I see it is I can't run a NICS on the buyer, everyone pretty much has a driver's license, heck in WA we give one to anyone who asks, no questions asked. So I have no way to know if me selling it to someone is illegal because I should have known, or had reason to believe the buyer was prohibited. To CMA I ask to see a CPL, smaller buyer pool but at least I have some token of protection if things go bad down the road.
     
  21. langenc

    langenc Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2006
    Messages:
    949
    Location:
    Montmorency Co, MI
    Michigan does still have paperwork that must be filed for pistol sales. copied from first few posts..

    Yes MI has some paperwork--REGISTRATION. The reason we still have it is that it is so 'easily accepted'. Get hold of your state rep ands senator and TELL them we want to be rid of it.. Hitler loved gun registration...


    Any one selling or trading a firearm at a gun show or in the parking lot is required to have an FFL handle the transaction. (most FFL's will do this for a $12-$15 fee) From post #11

    $12-15-your ID dont say where you are from.. Most places it is twice (or more ) that figure or you have never done it..
     
  22. alsaqr

    alsaqr Member

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2007
    Messages:
    3,418
    Location:
    South Western, OK
    Bingo!!! Dead on.

    BTW: The US current senate bill is S.35. It was proposed by Frank Lautenberg of NJ. It has 11 co-sponsors: All are the usual suspects.

    http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/thomas

    Reference: In 2001 the Lieberman - McCain "gunshow loophole" bill was presented to the US senate. This was much more than a bill to close the so called gunshow "loophole". Thankfully it failed to pass.

    http://www.davekopel.org/2A/IP/gunshows2.htm
     
  23. TexasRifleman

    TexasRifleman Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2003
    Messages:
    18,302
    Location:
    Ft. Worth
    Actually according to crime records that's not where you would get your guns at all.

    The anti's can keep telling that story, but it doesn't make it true.

    In reality you will steal guns from your friends and neighbors or buy one from another criminal buddy of yours who stole it.

    From Justice Department report on source of guns used in crime:

    Off the street 39.2%
    Friends or family 39.6%

    The Department of Justice report also shows that guns sourced from gun shows account for 0.7% of guns used in crime. ZERO POINT SEVEN.

    I've long argued that anti's should be allowed to post on THR but I believe they should be banned if they are dishonest. If their argument is so strong why do they have to make up stories to sell it?

    ETA: I know Black Toe Knives is doing the "devil's advocate" thing. Just to make it clear, I am not calling him an anti, I am calling his "criminal argument" one since that is a commonly told story by the anti side.
     
  24. TexasRifleman

    TexasRifleman Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2003
    Messages:
    18,302
    Location:
    Ft. Worth
    I don't have to say so, the Department of Justice has said it.

    I note that you post no rebuttal to their claims, and that's good. That means there really aren't any.

    http://www.showmasters.us/Portals/0/pdf/Firearms%20Use%20by%20Offenders.pdf

    I assume you are just playing the devil's advocate but you should be able to show some numbers to back it up if they existed. Whether you are a real anti or not doesn't matter, you have taken the anti position for your argument but that position is based on lies and provably so.

    So, as is typical in these debates, once the facts are shown the person arguing on the side of the anti simply disappears. That happens a lot surprisingly. It's not a bad thing I guess. The real frustrating part is that so many anti's believe this stuff with such zeal that even when you show them the truth they refuse to believe it.

    I'll debate the gun thing with anyone, anywhere but sadly most of them turn out to not be "debates" at all, once any facts are brought to the table the anti side just walks off claiming unfairness.

    This whole "loophole" thing with the media is the same. You can show them facts til blue in the face, they simply don't want to believe it because then there is no story to chase.
     
  25. TexasRifleman

    TexasRifleman Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2003
    Messages:
    18,302
    Location:
    Ft. Worth
    Again, I thought it was pretty clear you were playing devil's advocate, I meant "you" as in the criminal you posed yourself as not "you" as Black Toe Knives.

    My mistake if I didn't explain that well. Sorry.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page