Prevalence of Asperger's Syndrome Among Gun Nuts

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Ok, maybe I mispoke about it being a personality type rather than a disorder. I do know that I have learned some techniques of dealing with AS in my son that has helped him. I also know that I'm laying the groundwork now for his success later on by focusing on his personality now. I was devistated when I first got the news of Autism. Now I look at it as something we have to manage and work around. I view my child as a normal, healthy four year old. We just have to manage his disorder.
 
"What, then, is the best way for us who are dorks, geeks and linear, detail-oriented types and not masters of witty, face-to-face repartee to respond to those who sling diagnoses without medical qualifications?"

Happy Bob - Ask to see their medical license or Ph.D. and then ask about their clinical training and practical experience. Threaten to turn 'em in for practicing without a license and then laugh in their faces. Or do what you did. Any tactic is fair when fighting ignorance. :)

"I had a boss once (a lawyer in employment litigation, no less) who set up a meeting for me with a university-run AS/Autism research unit led by a member of her wide circle of acquaintances."

Tacky, ill-advised and might even be unlawful these days. Now, if the boss was your friend and asked if you'd be interested in going then that would be different. Maybe the boss meant well, but who knows?

I've been listening to employment tales for more than 30 years and I'm still hearing new ones. Everybody is different AND has had different experiences and learned different lessons.

One example, unrelated to this discussion, happened 20+ years ago. We got this kid a job at a turkey processing plant. He was straight off the farm and was deaf. The first day the boss called up yelling to get over there immediately. It turned out that the kid was urinating all over the walls in the bathroom. Hmmm, that could be a big problem. Well, the kid didn't have a bathroom at home and if the flies in the outhouse were fair game then the ones at work should be too. It took a sign language interpreter to straighten that one out.

Speaking of adapting, I took my central VA accent to Baltimore where I attended city schools in the '50s. After 7th grade we moved 15 miles north of D.C. Talk about a culture shock. The good news was that I was big enough that they didn't mess with me more than about once every year or so. I liked making good grades (not straight A's), I liked to read, I liked math, I didn't study and then I was an early-decision-acceptance physics major at Tech. I changed majors after the 3rd year because they wouldn't let me play with the reactor. I should have been a chemist I think looking back on it.

Meanwhile, I have a gun to clean and a trigger to polish.

John
 
What's the syndrome name for people who live in huts in rural Alaska with no heaters? :D

Forgetting important dates and birthdays? Yup. Avoiding formal social situations? Oh yeah. Missing subtle signals of displeasure, esp. from females? I'm there. Fixation on complex and intricite distinctions? Yup. Guns, architecture, history, you name it. So what does that make me? A man, I suppose.
 
Cosmoline:
Forgetting important dates and birthdays? Yup. Avoiding formal social situations? Oh yeah. Missing subtle signals of displeasure, esp. from females? I'm there. Fixation on complex and intricite distinctions? Yup. Guns, architecture, history, you name it. So what does that make me? A man, I suppose.
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pdmoderator:
P.S. Horse puckey is right. Shrinks are like lawyers; they just make more work for shrinks.
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Alright, reading that just plain hurts. Fine, make fun of it. There's a metric crapload of kids out there that suffer from a legit disorder FAR worse than I might. I'm not even saying that I have AS -- and if I do I'm probably on the far end of the low spectrum.

Equating AS as some fantasy condition because normal folks exhibit some of the SYMPTOMS of the disorder is akin to writing off schitzophrenia because, hey, who hasn't seen a face in the carpet or a cloud? Must be all horse puckey, right?

How many hours have YOU spent in a closet, bundled up into a ball, in the corner, BANGING YOUR HEAD ON THE WALL BECAUSE ITS A SOOTHING EXPERIENCE?! What? You mean you've never spent an hour of your adult life backed into a corner laying on the floor in a ball smacking your head on the floor to calm yourself down? Ha ha! It's funny! Fake problem, yuk yuk!

Hey, why's that guy collapsed in a puddle after running 6 miles? That's funny! Hey, he's all curled up in a ball crying to himself moaning and rocking back and forth in that field! Ha ha! Stupid fake condition.

There isn't a living soul on the face of the earth that has ever heard some of the stuff I've said here, so please keep making jokes about how AS is something fake and nobody has it.

JoeRapture,

Sorry about pouncing on the personality vs disorder terminology. I can't officially say I have AS (nor would I want to) but ... well ... I can identify in many respects to people that have it.

It's a disorder, but it can be managed, I think, into manifesting itself into "quirks." If your child has a "quirky" request it'd probably help to ask why. Don't try and talk them out of it, though. If they have a reason, they have a reason. You will NOT change that. Somewhere before my teenage years I decided I didn't like wearing jeans. I don't remember why -- it might have just been one uncomfortable pair for all I remember. I didn't own a pair of jeans until I was 21 again. I wore khakis or sweats for years and the meer THOUGHT of me having to wear jeans was a cause of trauma. I still have an aversion to them -- I only own 2 pairs and I bought the last pair just 2 weeks ago. Had the other pair for 2 years. Obviously, I barely wear them. Hangover from whatever hangup I had.

It is easy to assume that your "weird" kid is just being too picky and needs to learn to deal with stuff. Normally, yes. Tell a kid with AS that he's getting Mac & Cheese and drop a plate of blue stuff in front of him and he'll probably flip. Never happened to me, ... oh heck, nearly did. Mac & Cheese was always yellow in my house, but an aunt made some once and it was white colored -- confused the crap out of me. Guess there was a reason I thought of that example. Not sure if it was a big deal to me or not... but I guess since that memory from 20 years ago popped up, it might have been.

You probably already know this but uniformity and patterns are key. This is why I would encourage you to ask "why" -- simply because some patterns have no logic behind them. They're actually just regular things for no reason at all. Those can be "broken" without trauma. Watching a TV show might not be important, but the color of their shoes might be. Not EVERYTHING has to be consistent, just some stuff -- and you might not place importance on the same things, so ASK them. You'll probably find some very odd things that MUST be consistent in your child's life.

I really think "cope" is the best idea until the teen years then you can "deal" with the problems. The only way to deal with them, though, is to identify them and make a conscious effort to overcome, or basically mask, the odd behavior. I didn't get around to this stage until I was 19 though, so I can't say for sure what age to start with the "dealing" process should start. A "shrink" (you know, the people that made up the disease that left me banging my head into a wall for hours in a dark closet) might have some advice or at least anecdotal evidence.
 
Um, who's human enough to be allowed to go armed?

Imagine someone of exactly 100 IQ, someone who is exactly at the zero of the x axis of all possible bell curves. Aside from the very great probability that there ain't no such guy, he could probably make a very good living as a clothes dummy. No dummy myself, I vary somewhat from the norm in all sorts of ways. I'm smarter than most, smaller than most guys, I have bad teeth, am nearsighted in one eye, have good balance (does me well in field sobriety tests). I could name any number of things at which I am either better or worse, either naturally or cultivatedly, than other folks.

Let's say I had a perfectly neurotypical brain, IQ 110 or so, but was confined to a powered chair by a broken neck, and communicated by blowing through a tube. Not much point in my going armed there, eh?

Then consider that maybe I had full and easy control of my body, was somewhat smarter in some ways, maybe dumber in some, than the general run of folks, but was generally more earnest, and honest, and less inclined to fall into partisan fanaticism than the guys around x=0? A consciously, conscientiously kinda-rational guy?

May I go armed?

Edit: changed "cool-headed" to "kinda-rational". I am not cool-headed.
 
Gee, Justin, Sorry It's That Bad. Honest!

I seem to have had just a slight taste of it, compared to you. Of course you seem both smarter and more accomplished than I, if that's any consolation. Owhell.
 
Cheers for one of the more interesting threads in some time. I scored a 32 myself, my wife only a 14.

-I dislike many social situations, and am not very good at small talk with folks I don't know. I can tough it out through them, but prefer to not have to to begin with.
-I tend to keep to myself, and sometimes struggle with that even with family. Not that I'm introverted in a bad way, but often I just don't think to interact, or assume to think that whomever would be interested in doing so with me. For the most part. I've always "kept my own council" as it's called.
-I don't obsess with numbers/patterns, but I do have interests I have a tendency to obsess over. I'll get interested in something, find out out all the information about it and I mean all, maybe purchase that something, then get bored/tired with it, and move on. I've done this since I can remember beginning as a child (another WWII combat aviation kid here too btw...I remember being mesmerized by the books I had of them as a child, and memorized much of their information). I invariably do come back to some of those interests like a spinning wheel: firearms (and all the gear, CCW, etc. and I am a former Marine), fly fishing (salt and bass), astronomy (telescopes, binoculars and all the gear), military history (WWII combat aviation, USMC, and Civil War in particular) and a few others. Or perhaps it's that I don't totally leave them, I dunno. Others are less certain that I'll come back to, and some, not at all.

I don't beleive that I'm abnormal, just have varied interests like any man would. But I do indentify with some of a stated charateristics, and after scoring a 32, I guess that makes some kind of sense.
 
Bogie - Like all people, those with an Autism or AS diagnosis have their preferred way of looking at the world and interacting. Some are pattern oriented, some prefer the abstract and some look at things primarily in concrete terms.

I'm fascinated by the different ways people think, not their conclusions necessarily, but the actual process they use to think and communicate. I began reading about Dr. Temple Grandin years ago and remain amazed by how she thinks in pictures and how she describes her autism. And as far as successful adaptation goes..."In fact, one third of the cattle and hogs in the United States are handled in equipment I have designed."

www.grandin.com/inc/visual.thinking.html

"Chapter 1: Autism and Visual Thought
Dr. Temple Grandin

I THINK IN PICTURES. Words are like a second language to me. I translate both spoken and written words into full-color movies, complete with sound, which run like a VCR tape in my head. When somebody speaks to me, his words are instantly translated into pictures. Language-based thinkers often find this phenomenon difficult to understand, but in my job as an equipment designer for the livestock industry, visual thinking is a tremendous advantage.

Visual thinking has enabled me to build entire systems in my imagination. During my career I have designed all kinds of equipment, ranging from corrals for handling cattle on ranches to systems for handling cattle and hogs during veterinary procedures and slaughter. I have worked for many major livestock companies. In fact, one third of the cattle and hogs in the United States are handled in equipment I have designed. Some of the people I've worked for don't even know that their systems were designed by someone with autism. I value my ability to think visually, and I would never want to lose it."
 
P.S. Horse puckey is right. Shrinks are like lawyers; they just make more work for shrinks.
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It is hard to argue with such an intelligent statement, but I will try. While an occasional "pop disorder" will appear from time to time (people that were upset over the past election results), there are plenty of people that suffer from legitimate disorders that prevent them from functioning. I am not tlaking about quirky or odd people, I am talking about people that are unable to relate to others, hold a job, or even leave the house.
 
Gee, Justin, Sorry It's That Bad. Honest!
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Sorry that I stepped off the deep end. I'm much better off these days than I was as a kid truth be told. Yanking back a bunch of memories well... yeah, not so much fun.
 
Oh yeah...

-I don't obsess with numbers/patterns, but I do have interests I have a tendency to obsess over. I'll get interested in something, find out out all the information about it and I mean all, maybe purchase that something, then get bored/tired with it, and move on.
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Been there, done that... And it's really bad when you go to something, and it turns out that the only person in the room who understands what you're talking about is the guest lecturer.

And you're 11 years old... Had a really great conversation after the speech.

Let's see... from an early age - geology/lapidary, fishing, camping, woodworking, coins, stamps, knives, writing/journalism, photography, computer stuff, Audiovisual/stereo stuff (and producing/recording...), etc. Learn everything, master the craft, and then move on - I've also got a tendency to buy table lamps, kitchen stuff, and tools...

Got into desktop publishing in a big way in the mid/late eighties, and made my living with it for a while. Been a designer in corporate America since 1992. Thinking that it may not be that I'm burnt out (been sorta dragging), but that I've reached the far end of "let's play with this concept," and that it's time to move on to something else... But at this point, nothing else is beckoning.

What do you do when nothing is really that interesting?
 
but I do have interests I have a tendency to obsess over.
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It doesn't sound like you are really that obsessive. Too much free time, mayhap. :D Until you literally can't walk into a room without turning the lights on and off five times, it's not really an obsession. If you REALLY CAN'T turn your head left without turning it right once to "even it out", it's nothing to worry about. I don't have the first problem, though I had the latter(If I drummed three fingers on my left thigh, I would have to do the same on my right) and still have it to some extent. I mostly broke myself of it, because it started annoying even me. But until I did I almost couldn't stop myself from such "evening out". And I still do it sometimes but I don't HAVE to.
 
Does AS increase performance in pattern-oriented activities or games? i.e., would an AS person be a major tetris geek?
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I think I have an answer for that, Bogie.

AS and Autism doesn't mean that you're a master of patterns. It means that you depend on them. An AS person doesn't see patterns because they're intelligent -- they see them because they MUST from time to time.

You find patterns because you almost HAVE to, not because they actually make sense.
 
This guy is a valued member of our team--I don't mean to imply that he's clueless or has comprehension problems. It's more like he has blind spots or something. His memory borders on photographic and yet I've watched him virtually get lost in a small town where he's lived for nearly 20 years. It wasn't so much that he didn't know where he was going as it was that he couldn't do the point-to-point computation.

The repetition to get things to sink in isn't to help him comprehend. He'll respond to the first statement (after his typical delay--which seems to me to be a response processing delay, not a trying to comprehend delay if that makes sense) with an answer that indicates he understands what you said. But unless you tell him several more times nothing results. It really is like you have to warm him up to the idea that something can be done any way other than the way he has formulated in his mind.

He's very good at his job and has excellent insight into the aspects of it and into other aspects of what we do, but at the same time, he has absolutely no clue when he's being impolite by interrupting a conversation or talking over someone. Not that he doesn't understand that's impolite, because he doesn't want it done to him. It's just another of his blind spots, for lack of a better term.

A coworker (very good friend of this fellow--possibly his best friend) wrote a program that did a menial part of his job for him automatically. In spite of the fact that this person helped the programmer with the setup of the program and agreed that it was a very good idea, it was several years before he began using it as a matter of course. Change is absolutely anathema to this person even when he sees the necessity and the benefit.

He lives alone, has never been married and has never indicated that he has ever had any romantic interests or girlfriends even though I've known and worked with him for 15 years and know people who knew him from well over 20 years back. He never mentions engaging in any activities with anyone outside of work and has never been seen or known to engage in such. Loner doesn't begin to describe him.

He truly enjoys his work even though it is VERY tedious. Not simple tedious, painfully difficult tedious. He will take a person and show them details of what he does literally for hours if they are too polite (or not allowed) to leave. In spite of the fact that we often punish/prank people by turning this guy loose on them, he's never even suspected it. That kind of thing just doesn't register with him. I think it would be very difficult to even explain what was going on to him.

I also don't want to give the impression that this guy isn't functional. He spent many years in the military and acquitted himself very well. He is very well thought of in his field and has lived on his own for his entire adult life. He is very responsible with his money, isn't in debt, doesn't get into any kind of trouble, has never needed or asked for any help outside of work from any of his coworkers, has nice things, etc. etc.

BTW, he's not into guns at all. I think his job is his only hobby.
 
thanks for posting the thread.

what really sucks is the misdiagnosis of ADD and HADD and over prescribing of ritalin on thousands if not few million of kids who actually wind up worse.

as for the people joking in the thread you really are a bunch of A******* is not what I would come to expect on THR but its not the first doubt it will be last.
 
Okay - I sorta know what you mean... Every so often, I get "really into" something... Not often, but... And since I was a kid, I've had recurring dreams where there's nothingness - but it's more like a giant encompassing cotton tuft... and there are balls criss-crossing it... very complex, random-appearing at first, pattern. I figure it out. Or maybe I make the balls adhere to it via thought - not sure...

It's not a bad dream... comforting, almost. I've probably had it on average a couple of times a year since I was 5-6 or so... pretty weird.
 
More for parents.

Couple things I was thinking about this morning.. might help some follks, I dunno.

One thing that can be an issue is touch. This shows up a lot I guess in Autism and to some degree in AS. I know, personally, when I'm all freaked out over something (against, mostly happened in childhood) that the LAST thing I needed was my parents to try and physically comfort me. Once that magic breaking point is reached all bets are off and there is nothing you can do to fix it. As a parent I'd imagine this sucks pretty bad. Trust me, it's no fun on the OTHER side either.

How you would tell the difference from a regular childhood tantrum and them totally freaking out I don't know. I don't remember my childhood tantrums though, but I DO remember when I just "lost it" from time to time. You'd probably have to have video of them side by side for me to tell you the difference -- which brings me to another point.

There's a logical reason why empathy is an impossible thing for AS people. The emotional scale just doesn't work like it does in normal people I guess. Much like the political spectrum it's actuall a pyramid, or a circle upon which you would plot an emotion for a normal person. The more severe the case, the less of a spectrum there is. I'd imagine a true-blue Autistic simply has good and bad feelings. Nothing in the middle. For me there's actually a sliding scale. Anger and intense sadness are virtually the same to me -- I only know the difference because I know what they SHOULD be based upon what has happened. When I get angry I cry -- it FEELS like the same thing inside. Without knowing what just happened I could absolutely positively NOT tell you if I was angry or sad or scared... which brings us full circle now.

Your child is sad, or upset, and totally lost it. Trying to physically comfort them isn't going to help because they don't have a sad or upset feeling, they're in full-on fight-or-flight attack mode for no good reason. Its all just one big unhappy emotion. You're running on all 8 cylinders, and scared to death of everything around you. No good reason, you just are because it's the only emotion you have on that end of the spectrum.

Think of it as akin to trying to give a hug to somebody involved in the middle of a gun fight. Yes, you have the best of intentions, but how do you think THEY are going to respond to it? Not well, and it will only make them jumpier.

Now, this isn't to say that they're dangerous -- logic can still prevail within the mind. Just because the appropriate EMOTION isn't being felt doesn't mean the wrong ACTION will be taken.

Seeing a grown man beating a child means I should take action to prevent this, and probably pummel the worthless puke into the ground. When I'm sad I know to just go off by myself and sit somewhere to sort things out. However, when it's all said and done I'll FEEL the same way.

Hope that helps.
 
Oh, Wow, I was gonna leave this thread alone for a while,

What with (cough) sober (cough) consideration and thoughts of, "OMG, did I really write that!" but some recent posts got me going again.

1st, for JohnBT:

Funny you should mention that. I spent a coupla hours last PM in the B&N reading "Thinking in Pictures" by Professor Grandin all the way through. I fully intend to go back tomorrow and buy it, so shut up you copyright maximalists! Yup, she's like me, just LOTS more so.
The most interesting part, to my thinking, was her chapter on theology. She wrote of having her religious consciousness profoundly, if temporarily, changed, by stupidly doing a publicity stunt involving swimming through a tick-dip for cattle, which was loaded with organophosphates.

2nd, for mrapathy:

About the wrong ideas the "helpers" have, yeah, that sucks.

About the jokes? I "imagine" yer pain, unlike that spherical bastard who claimed to "feel" it, and was lying, of course.

I think Al of Gor might actually be somewhat like some of us. I think he suffers from seriously wrong ideas, though. The boy ain't got good axioms!

Now, Dubya, he's an NT with a good heart, but even he has his litle ways....

3d, for gigabuist:

Yup, lotsa times they just make it worse. I've tried, and failed, many times, to explain to my (aged, hm maybe that's why) Daddy why I feel much better if he just leaves me alone to chill out for a while after he's done something to me he's sorry about, rather than do what he usually does and get all pushy-feely with apologies, etc. Hey, lemmee just go off by myself for a bit, I'll get over it!

Dang! There I went, TMI again!
Am of course posting this anyway. snork.
 
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